canSAS - User contributions [en]

/GISANS - Advancing data reduction and analysis Workshop

2026-04-12T12:55:45Z

AdrianRennie:

[[File:GISANS Programme FINAL.jpg|thumb|Workshop programme]]

==== Summary ====
Overall Summary

(i) ToF
* Instrument factors influence measurement strategies and tools are needed to aid this process.
* Background - effects of inelastic scattering can change background signals that would not be identified/recorded correctly with respect to wavelength by time-of-flight.
* Resolution is important regarding both wavelength and angle. The latter depends on collimation/beam divergence as well as footprint on the sample and spatial resolution of the detector. The footprint depends on angle of incidence. The footprint gives some spatial and angular resolution projected on the detector.
Full interpretation of data is likely to require extensive information to be available with processed data.
* Data reduction from raw data will require establishment of appropriate data formats for input to existing modelling and analysis software. The software may also need development to fully exploit the information that is available.
* ToF and mono mode have different data processing requirements!
** Spread of wavelength in ToF = possible quasi elastic events vs. Mono = assumption of elastic scattering
** this mostly impacts on Background: mostly inelastic

(ii) Multiple scattering
* Reflection and refraction (optical effects) should be distinguished from multiple scattering
* There is a need to agree on a common nomenclature
** “Coherent multiple scattering” can refer to the situation in which successive scattering events are not treated independently but are combined quantum mechanically, i.e., the amplitudes from different scattering paths are added coherently. This use of "coherence" has to be distinguished from others such as simple spin-coherence widely discussed in neutron scattering.
** Sub-cases of multiple coherent scattering: (i) propagation of the incident wave through stratified media, which is incorporated exactly in the optical formalism treating reflection and refraction; and (ii) scattering from embedded “particles” (additional scattering centers) which is treated as a perturbation within the 1st-order Born approximation. Both (i) and (ii) are within the quantum theory (‘coherent’).
** “Incoherent multiple scattering” denotes an approximation in which scattering from each center is treated, but the subsequent propagation of scattered waves is represented within a semi-classical or ray-optical picture (Gaussian optics). This approach is conceptually analogous to the semi-classical treatment of transport phenomena based on the Boltzmann equation, where phase relations between successive scattering events are neglected. The result corresponds to summing intensities rather than amplitudes of scattered waves.

* There are several factors that influence multiple scattering: mean free path length & coherence length, sample size / geometry
** They have to be identified before each experiment
* Multiple scattering is often present in background signals. It can be used also to explicitly enhance signal
* comparison of X-rays and neutrons:
** X-rays: (mostly) strong absorption
** Neutrons:
*** Absorption is often weak and therefore, scattering is relative to absorption, of higher intensity.
*** Hydrogen is a particularly strong incoherent scattering nucleus
** Be careful when comparing the theory from GISAXS and GISANS!
* How to measure MS?
* For multiple scattering it can be useful to include Monte Carlo calculations such as McStas as tool for GISANS analysis.

*** Example: ID10 ESRF

(iii) Background handling
* Background subtraction is dependent on:
** sample system/geometry/the observable physics.
* Each system has to be treated in a different way.
* Useful recent work (F. A. Jung and C. M. Papadakis, 'Strategy to simulate and fit 2D grazing-incidence small-angle X-ray scattering patterns of nanostructured thin films' J. Appl. Cryst. (2023) 56, 1330–1347. https://doi.org/10.1107/S1600576723006520 ) regarding strategy to handle background for fits and simulations to GISAXS patterns.
* A survey would help to identify the necessary / common steps among the community for specific classified systems.

(iv) Normalization
* Full quantitative normalization procedure:
** measuring GISANS together with NR & Off-specular scattering, to view the whole Q-space.
*** In NR: fit the data+background to the total signal (instead of subtracting!)
** GIXOS?
* If this is not feasible:
** Same as topic "Background": each system has to be classified for its way "how to be treated" - Survey needed! (Different normalization procedures at different beamlines and for different classes of systems)
* General aspects (sample independent):
** Precise I(lambda) normalization of the beamlines has to be performed
** Good to get a Survey "How is this done at different beamlines currently"?
** Using AI?: Should then contain: (i) dataset that is similar to the experiments and (ii) what this data-set represents (physically)

* Data-reduction:
** Insert corrections for efficiency etc.,
** Uncertainty calculation reproducible?
*** Information on footprint, slits, .. (see detailed notes)
*** Further input to uncertainty apart from countrate?
* Comparison to SAS:
** GISAS = normalization to DB vs. SAS: = calculation of differential cross section (not possible in GISAS)

(v) Using SANS software
* Regarding BornAgain:
** Need a set of prototype models (check what is on the BA webpage) - especially for inexperienced users
*** This should include a very detailed description about its physical limitations, directly implemented into BA sending error messages if beyond range.
*** Can we benefit from models in other software packages?
*** SasView: easy user-insertions of new form-factors - learn from that?
*** Package approach in BA problematic?
** Further good features to implement: (i) intensity w.r.t. direct beam, w.r.t multiple scattering background, w.r.t. general expected background (according to experience + commissioning).
** How to get fitting for GISANS working?
* Inspiration from X-ray programs: Brookhaven, Ben Ocko, BornAgain. Other: BoToSim, BoToFit, SpinW

(vi) Instrumentation
* Missing

(vii) Common data format
* Pros and Cons of separating "reduction" and "analysis", i.e., having an instrument independent analysis without original raw information
** Pro:
*** datasets are transferable between softwares
** Con:
*** Throw away information?
*** Have to understand the inputs and what needs to be kept
*** How to calculate uncertainties?
* Why necessary to define in beginning: Once defined, file formats should not be altered, only extended (e.g. possible in nexus or cansas XML formats)
* Maybe not "throw away" raw counts after reduction, but keep all information? If suitable / manageable: Ask in Survey?

(ix) Magnetic Scattering
* considering ".nxs" files and dimensions: A scan of everything/motor should be considered a dimension in the "nxs". It should not be restricted to 4 dimensions.
* On-the-fly polarization analysis: online corrections are good. But highest precision correction should be done at the end of the experiment before the users go home.
(x) Off-Specular
* Missing

==== Outlook ====
* Letter in "Neutron News"
* Need a survey on : (i) Normalization, Background handling, Instrumentation and (ii) Data formats

==== Detailed Discussion session notes ====

'''POINT A. ToF-GISANS''' 
* Presentation slides: To come
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/ToF-GISANS]]

'''POINT B. Multiple scattering''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:HF_MuSc GISANS.pdf|thumb]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Multiple Scattering]]

'''POINT C. Background handling''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:Background ideas.pdf|thumb]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Background handling]]

'''POINT D. Normalization''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:GISANS-NormalizationDiscussionStarters.pdf|thumb|Introduction to Normalization - Sebastian Jaksch]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Normalization]]

'''POINT E. Using SANS software''' 
* No introduction talk
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Using SANS software]]

'''POINT F / Instrumentation & Q/lambda resolution''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:2026 03 CANSAS Grenoble Resol Fn JFMoulin.pdf|thumb|Introduction to ToF Resolution aspects - Jean-Francois Moulin]]
[[File:TopervergGISANS2026ILL1-part1.pdf|thumb|Talk "DWBA: kinematics, coherence & resolution issues" from Boris Toperverg - Part 1]]
[[File:TopervergGISANS2026ILL1-part2.pdf|thumb|Talk "DWBA: kinematics, coherence & resolution issues" from Boris Toperverg - Part 2]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Instrumentation & Q/lambda resolution]]

'''POINT G. Need good documentation''' 
* No Introduction talk
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Documentation]]

'''POINT H. Integration of McStas with BornAgain''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:HF McStas.pdf|thumb|Introduction on McStas - Henrich Frielinghaus]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/McStas]]

'''POINT I. Get a common data format for GISANS data reduction:''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:GISANS 2026 File Formats - Brian Maranville.pdf|thumb|Introduction on File Formats - Brian Maranville]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Common Data Format]]

'''POINT J. Computer simulations / AI support:''' 
* No Introduction talk
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Computer simulations / AI support]]

'''POINT K. Off-specular scattering:''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:Gutfreund OffSpec new part 1.pdf|thumb|Talk on "Offspecular Scattering" from Philipp Gutfreund - Part 1]]
[[File:Gutfreund OffSpec new part 2.pdf|thumb|Talk on "Offspecular Scattering" from Philipp Gutfreund - Part 2]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Off-Specular Scattering]]

'''POINT L. Magnetic Scattering:''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:Magnetic GISANS.pdf|thumb|Talk on "Magnetic and PA-GISANS" from Annika Stellhorn]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Notes Magnetic Scattering]]

'''POINT M. Data Reduction:''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:2026 03 CANSAS Grenoble Data Reduction TOF JFMoulin.pdf|thumb|Introduction to ToF Data Reduction - Jean-Francois Moulin]]
[[File:2026 03 12 Monochromatic GISANS reduction v4.pdf|thumb]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Notes Data Reduction]]

==== Organizational notes ====

/GISANS - Advancing data reduction and analysis Workshop

2026-04-12T12:30:05Z

AdrianRennie:

[[File:GISANS Programme FINAL.jpg|thumb|Workshop programme]]

==== Summary ====
Overall Summary

(i) ToF
* Instrument factors influence measurement strategies and tools are needed to aid this process.
* Background - effects of inelastic scattering can change background signals that would not be identified/recorded correctly with respect to wavelength by time-of-flight.
* Resolution is important regarding both wavelength and angle. The latter depends on collimation/beam divergence as well as footprint on the sample and spatial resolution of the detector. The footprint depends on angle of incidence. The footprint gives some spatial and angular resolution projected on the detector.
Full interpretation of data is likely to require extensive information to be available with processed data.
* Data reduction from raw data will require establishment of appropriate data formats for input to existing modelling and analysis software. The software may also need development to fully exploit the information that is available.
* ToF and mono mode have different data processing requirements!
** Spread of wavelength in ToF = possible quasi elastic events vs. Mono = assumption of elastic scattering
** this mostly impacts on Background: mostly inelastic

(ii) Multiple scattering
* Reflection and refraction (optical effects) should be distinguished from multiple scattering
* There is a need to agree on a common nomenclature
** “Coherent multiple scattering” can refer to the situation in which successive scattering events are not treated independently but are combined quantum mechanically, i.e., the amplitudes from different scattering paths are added coherently. This use of "coherence" has to be distinguished from others such as simple spin-coherence widely discussed in neutron scattering.
** Sub-cases of multiple coherent scattering: (i) propagation of the incident wave through stratified media, which is incorporated exactly in the optical formalism treating reflection and refraction; and (ii) scattering from embedded “particles” (additional scattering centers) which is treated as a perturbation within the 1st-order Born approximation. Both (i) and (ii) are within the quantum theory (‘coherent’).
** “Incoherent multiple scattering” denotes an approximation in which scattering from each center is treated, but the subsequent propagation of scattered waves is represented within a semi-classical or ray-optical picture (Gaussian optics). This approach is conceptually analogous to the semi-classical treatment of transport phenomena based on the Boltzmann equation, where phase relations between successive scattering events are neglected. The result corresponds to summing intensities rather than amplitudes of scattered waves.

* There are several factors that influence multiple scattering: mean free path length & coherence length, sample size / geometry
** They have to be identified before each experiment
* Multiple scattering is often present in background signals. It can be used also to explicitly enhance signal
* comparison of X-rays and neutrons:
** X-rays: (mostly) strong absorption
** Neutrons:
*** Absorption is often weak and therefore, scattering is relative to absorption, of higher intensity.
*** Hydrogen is a particularly strong incoherent scattering nucleus
** Be careful when comparing the theory from GISAXS and GISANS!
* How to measure MS?
* For multiple scattering it can be useful to include Monte Carlo calculations such as McStas as tool for GISANS analysis.

*** Example: ID10 ESRF

(iii) Background handling
* Background subtraction is dependent on:
** sample system/geometry/the observable physics.
* Each system has to be treated in a different way.
* Useful recent work (F. A. Jung and C. M. Papadakis, 'Strategy to simulate and fit 2D grazing-incidence small-angle X-ray scattering patterns of nanostructured thin films' J. Appl. Cryst. (2023) 56, 1330–1347. https://doi.org/10.1107/S1600576723006520 ) regarding strategy to handle background for fits and simulations to GISAXS patterns.
* A survey would help to identify the necessary / common steps among the community for specific classified systems.

(iv) Normalization
* Full quantitative normalization procedure:
** measuring GISANS together with NR & Off-specular scattering, to view the whole Q-space.
*** In NR: fit the data+background to the total signal (instead of subtracting!)
** GISOXS?
* If this is not feasible:
** Same as topic "Background": each system has to be classified for its way "how to be treated" - Survey needed! (Different normalization procedures at different beamlines and for different classes of systems)
* General aspects (sample independent):
** Precise I(lambda) normalization of the beamlines has to be performed
** Good to get a Survey "How is this done at different beamlines currently"?
** Using AI?: Should then contain: (i) dataset that is similar to the experiments and (ii) what this data-set represents (physically)

* Data-reduction:
** Insert corrections for efficiency etc.,
** Uncertainty calculation reproducible?
*** Information on footprint, slits, .. (see detailed notes)
*** Further input to uncertainty apart from countrate?
* Comparison to SAS:
** GISAS = normalization to DB vs. SAS: = calculation of differential cross section (not possible in GISAS)

(v) Using SANS software
* Regarding BornAgain:
** Need a set of prototype models (check what is on the BA webpage) - especially for inexperienced users
*** This should include a very detailed description about its physical limitations, directly implemented into BA sending error messages if overgone.
*** Can we benefit from models in other software packages?
*** SasView: easy user-insertions of new form-factors - learn from that?
*** Package approach in BA problematic?
** Further good features to implement: (i) intensity w.r.t. direct beam, w.r.t multiple scattering background, w.r.t. general expected background (according to experience + commissioning).
** How to get fitting for GISANS working?
* Inspiration from X-ray programs: Brookhaven, Ben Ocko, BornAgain. Other: BoToSim, BoToFit, SpinW

(vi) Instrumentation
* Missing

(vii) Common data format
* Pros and Cons of seperating "reduction" and "analysis", i.e., having an instrument independent analysis without original raw information
** Pro:
*** datasets are transferable between softwares
** Con:
*** Throw away information?
*** Have to understand the inputs and what needs to be kept
*** How to calculate uncertainties?
* Why necessary to define in beginning: Once defined, file formats should not be altered, only extended (e.g. possible in nexus or cansas XML formats)
* Maybe not "throw away" raw counts after reduction, but keep all information? If suitable / manageable: Ask in Survey?

(ix) Magnetic Scattering
* considering ".nxs" files and dimensions: A scan of everything/motor should be considered a dimension in the "nxs". It should not be restricted to 4 dimensions.
* On-the-fly polarization analysis: online corrections are good. But highest precision correction should be done at the end of the experiment before the users go home.
(x) Off-Specular
* Missing

==== Outlook ====
* Letter in "Neutron News"
* Need a survey on : (i) Normalization, Background handling, Instrumentation and (ii) Data formats

==== Detailed Discussion session notes ====

'''POINT A. ToF-GISANS''' 
* Presentation slides: To come
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/ToF-GISANS]]

'''POINT B. Multiple scattering''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:HF_MuSc GISANS.pdf|thumb]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Multiple Scattering]]

'''POINT C. Background handling''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:Background ideas.pdf|thumb]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Background handling]]

'''POINT D. Normalization''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:GISANS-NormalizationDiscussionStarters.pdf|thumb|Introduction to Normalization - Sebastian Jaksch]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Normalization]]

'''POINT E. Using SANS software''' 
* No introduction talk
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Using SANS software]]

'''POINT F / Instrumentation & Q/lambda resolution''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:2026 03 CANSAS Grenoble Resol Fn JFMoulin.pdf|thumb|Introduction to ToF Resolution aspects - Jean-Francois Moulin]]
[[File:TopervergGISANS2026ILL1-part1.pdf|thumb|Talk "DWBA: kinematics, coherence & resolution issues" from Boris Toperverg - Part 1]]
[[File:TopervergGISANS2026ILL1-part2.pdf|thumb|Talk "DWBA: kinematics, coherence & resolution issues" from Boris Toperverg - Part 2]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Instrumentation & Q/lambda resolution]]

'''POINT G. Need good documentation''' 
* No Introduction talk
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Documentation]]

'''POINT H. Integration of McStas with BornAgain''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:HF McStas.pdf|thumb|Introduction on McStas - Henrich Frielinghaus]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/McStas]]

'''POINT I. Get a common data format for GISANS data reduction:''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:GISANS 2026 File Formats - Brian Maranville.pdf|thumb|Introduction on File Formats - Brian Maranville]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Common Data Format]]

'''POINT J. Computer simulations / AI support:''' 
* No Introduction talk
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Computer simulations / AI support]]

'''POINT K. Off-specular scattering:''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:Gutfreund OffSpec new part 1.pdf|thumb|Talk on "Offspecular Scattering" from Philipp Gutfreund - Part 1]]
[[File:Gutfreund OffSpec new part 2.pdf|thumb|Talk on "Offspecular Scattering" from Philipp Gutfreund - Part 2]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Off-Specular Scattering]]

'''POINT L. Magnetic Scattering:''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:Magnetic GISANS.pdf|thumb|Talk on "Magnetic and PA-GISANS" from Annika Stellhorn]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Notes Magnetic Scattering]]

'''POINT M. Data Reduction:''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:2026 03 CANSAS Grenoble Data Reduction TOF JFMoulin.pdf|thumb|Introduction to ToF Data Reduction - Jean-Francois Moulin]]
[[File:2026 03 12 Monochromatic GISANS reduction v4.pdf|thumb]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Notes Data Reduction]]

==== Organizational notes ====

/GISANS - Advancing data reduction and analysis Workshop

2026-04-12T12:14:46Z

AdrianRennie: Further clarifications

[[File:GISANS Programme FINAL.jpg|thumb|Workshop programme]]

==== Summary ====
Overall Summary

(i) ToF
* Instrument factors influence measurement strategies and tools are needed to aid this process.
* Background - effects of inelastic scattering can change background.
* Resolution is important regarding both wavelength and angle. The latter depends on collimation/beam divergence as well as footprint on the sample and spatial resolution of the detector. The footprint depends on angle of incidence. The footprint gives some spatial and angular resolution projected on the detector.
Full interpretation of data is likely to require extensive information to be available with processed data.
* Data reduction from raw data will require establishment of appropriate data formats for input to existing modelling and analysis software. The software may also need development to fully exploit the information that is available.
* ToF and mono mode have different data processing requirements!
** Spread of wavelength in ToF = possible quasi elastic events vs. Mono = assumption of elastic scattering
** this mostly impacts on Background: mostly inelastic

(ii) Multiple scattering
* Reflection and refraction (optical effects) should be distinguished from multiple scattering
* There is a need to agree on a common nomenclature
** “Coherent multiple scattering” can refer to the situation in which successive scattering events are not treated independently but are combined quantum mechanically, i.e., the amplitudes from different scattering paths are added coherently. This use of "coherence" has to be distinguished from others such as simple spin-coherence widely discussed in neutron scattering.
** Sub-cases of multiple coherent scattering: (i) propagation of the incident wave through stratified media, which is incorporated exactly in the optical formalism treating reflection and refraction; and (ii) scattering from embedded “particles” (additional scattering centers) which is treated as a perturbation within the 1st-order Born approximation. Both (i) and (ii) are within the quantum theory (‘coherent’).
** “Incoherent multiple scattering” denotes an approximation in which scattering from each center is treated, but the subsequent propagation of scattered waves is represented within a semi-classical or ray-optical picture (Gaussian optics). This approach is conceptually analogous to the semi-classical treatment of transport phenomena based on the Boltzmann equation, where phase relations between successive scattering events are neglected. The result corresponds to summing intensities rather than amplitudes of scattered waves.

* There are certain constraints for multiple scattering: mean free path length & coherence length, sample size / curvature / geometry
** They have to be identified before each experiment
* Multiple scattering is often present in background signals. It can be used also to explicitly enhance signal
* comparison of X-rays and neutrons:
** X-rays: (mostly) strong absorption
** Neutrons:
*** Absorption is often weak and therefore, scattering is relative to absorption, of higher intensity.
*** Hydrogen is a particularly strong incoherent scattering nucleus
** Be careful when comparing the theory from GISAXS and GISANS!
* How to measure MS?

*** Example: ID10 ESRF

(iii) Background handling
* Background subtraction is dependent on:
** sample system/geometry/the observable physics.
* Each system has to be treated in a different way.
* Useful recent work (Jung and Papadakis, J. Appl. Cryst. (2023) 56, 1330–1347) regarding strategy to handle background for fits and simulations to GISAXS patterns.
* A survey will help identifying the necessary / common steps among the community for specific classified systems.
* In case of multiple scattering: Include McStas as standard for GISANS analysis?

(iv) Normalization
* Full quantitative normalization procedure:
** measuring GISANS together with NR & Off-specular scattering, to view the whole Q-space.
*** In NR: fit the data+background to the total signal (instead of subtracting!)
** GISOXS?
* If this is not feasible:
** Same as topic "Background": each system has to be classified for its way "how to be treated" - Survey needed! (Different normalization procedures at different beamlines and for different classes of systems)
* General aspects (sample independent):
** Precise I(lambda) normalization of the beamlines has to be performed
** Good to get a Survey "How is this done at different beamlines currently"?
** Using AI?: Should then contain: (i) dataset that is similar to the experiments and (ii) what this data-set represents (physically)

* Data-reduction:
** Insert corrections for efficiency etc.,
** Uncertainty calculation reproducible?
*** Information on footprint, slits, .. (see detailed notes)
*** Further input to uncertainty apart from countrate?
* Comparison to SAS:
** GISAS = normalization to DB vs. SAS: = calculation of differential cross section (not possible in GISAS)

(v) Using SANS software
* Regarding BornAgain:
** Need a set of prototype models (check what is on the BA webpage) - especially for inexperienced users
*** This should include a very detailed description about its physical limitations, directly implemented into BA sending error messages if overgone.
*** Can we benefit from models in other software packages?
*** SasView: easy user-insertions of new form-factors - learn from that?
*** Package approach in BA problematic?
** Further good features to implement: (i) intensity w.r.t. direct beam, w.r.t multiple scattering background, w.r.t. general expected background (according to experience + commissioning).
** How to get fitting for GISANS working?
* Inspiration from X-ray programs: Brookhaven, Ben Ocko, BornAgain. Other: BoToSim, BoToFit, SpinW

(vi) Instrumentation
* Missing

(vii) Common data format
* Pros and Cons of seperating "reduction" and "analysis", i.e., having an instrument independent analysis without original raw information
** Pro:
*** datasets are transferable between softwares
** Con:
*** Throw away information?
*** Have to understand the inputs and what needs to be kept
*** How to calculate uncertainties?
* Why necessary to define in beginning: Once defined, file formats should not be altered, only extended (e.g. possible in nexus or cansas XML formats)
* Maybe not "throw away" raw counts after reduction, but keep all information? If suitable / manageable: Ask in Survey?

(ix) Magnetic Scattering
* considering ".nxs" files and dimensions: A scan of everything/motor should be considered a dimension in the "nxs". It should not be restricted to 4 dimensions.
* On-the-fly polarization analysis: online corrections are good. But highest precision correction should be done at the end of the experiment before the users go home.
(x) Off-Specular
* Missing

==== Outlook ====
* Letter in "Neutron News"
* Need a survey on : (i) Normalization, Background handling, Instrumentation and (ii) Data formats

==== Detailed Discussion session notes ====

'''POINT A. ToF-GISANS''' 
* Presentation slides: To come
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/ToF-GISANS]]

'''POINT B. Multiple scattering''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:HF_MuSc GISANS.pdf|thumb]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Multiple Scattering]]

'''POINT C. Background handling''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:Background ideas.pdf|thumb]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Background handling]]

'''POINT D. Normalization''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:GISANS-NormalizationDiscussionStarters.pdf|thumb|Introduction to Normalization - Sebastian Jaksch]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Normalization]]

'''POINT E. Using SANS software''' 
* No introduction talk
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Using SANS software]]

'''POINT F / Instrumentation & Q/lambda resolution''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:2026 03 CANSAS Grenoble Resol Fn JFMoulin.pdf|thumb|Introduction to ToF Resolution aspects - Jean-Francois Moulin]]
[[File:TopervergGISANS2026ILL1-part1.pdf|thumb|Talk "DWBA: kinematics, coherence & resolution issues" from Boris Toperverg - Part 1]]
[[File:TopervergGISANS2026ILL1-part2.pdf|thumb|Talk "DWBA: kinematics, coherence & resolution issues" from Boris Toperverg - Part 2]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Instrumentation & Q/lambda resolution]]

'''POINT G. Need good documentation''' 
* No Introduction talk
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Documentation]]

'''POINT H. Integration of McStas with BornAgain''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:HF McStas.pdf|thumb|Introduction on McStas - Henrich Frielinghaus]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/McStas]]

'''POINT I. Get a common data format for GISANS data reduction:''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:GISANS 2026 File Formats - Brian Maranville.pdf|thumb|Introduction on File Formats - Brian Maranville]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Common Data Format]]

'''POINT J. Computer simulations / AI support:''' 
* No Introduction talk
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Computer simulations / AI support]]

'''POINT K. Off-specular scattering:''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:Gutfreund OffSpec new part 1.pdf|thumb|Talk on "Offspecular Scattering" from Philipp Gutfreund - Part 1]]
[[File:Gutfreund OffSpec new part 2.pdf|thumb|Talk on "Offspecular Scattering" from Philipp Gutfreund - Part 2]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Off-Specular Scattering]]

'''POINT L. Magnetic Scattering:''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:Magnetic GISANS.pdf|thumb|Talk on "Magnetic and PA-GISANS" from Annika Stellhorn]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Notes Magnetic Scattering]]

'''POINT M. Data Reduction:''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:2026 03 CANSAS Grenoble Data Reduction TOF JFMoulin.pdf|thumb|Introduction to ToF Data Reduction - Jean-Francois Moulin]]
[[File:2026 03 12 Monochromatic GISANS reduction v4.pdf|thumb]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Notes Data Reduction]]

==== Organizational notes ====

/GISANS - Advancing data reduction and analysis Workshop

2026-04-09T15:51:16Z

AdrianRennie: A start to clarifications and structure of points

[[File:GISANS Programme FINAL.jpg|thumb|Workshop programme]]

==== Summary ====
Overall Summary

(i) ToF
* Instrument factors influence measurement strategies and tools are needed to aid this process.
* Background - effects of inelastic scattering can change background.
* Resolution is important regarding both wavelength and angle. The latter depends on collimation/beam divergence as well as footprint on the sample and spatial resolution of the detector. The footprint depends on angle of incidence. The footprint gives some spatial and angular resolution projected on the detector.
Full interpretation of data is likely to require extensive information to be available with processed data.
* Data reduction from raw data will require establishment of appropriate data formats for input to existing modelling and analysis software. The software may also need development to fully exploit the information that is available.
* ToF and mono mode have different data processing requirements!
** Spread of wavelength in ToF = possible quasi elastic events vs. Mono = assumption of elastic scattering
** this mostly impacts on Background: mostly inelastic

(ii) Multiple scattering
* Reflection and refraction (optical effects) should be distinguished from multiple scattering
* There is a need to agree on a common nomenclature
** “Coherent multiple scattering” can refer to the situation in which successive scattering events are not treated independently but are combined quantum mechanically, i.e., the amplitudes from different scattering paths are added coherently. This use of "coherence" has to be distinguished from others such as simple spin-coherence widely discussed in neutron scattering.
** Sub-cases of multiple coherent scattering: (i) propagation of the incident wave through stratified media, which is incorporated exactly in the optical formalism treating reflection and refraction; and (ii) scattering from embedded “particles” (additional scattering centers) which is treated as a perturbation within the 1st-order Born approximation. Both (i) and (ii) are within the quantum theory (‘coherent’).
** “Incoherent multiple scattering” denotes an approximation in which scattering from each center is treated, but the subsequent propagation of scattered waves is represented within a semi-classical or ray-optical picture (Gaussian optics). This approach is conceptually analogous to the semi-classical treatment of transport phenomena based on the Boltzmann equation, where phase relations between successive scattering events are neglected. The result corresponds to summing intensities rather than amplitudes of scattered waves.

* There are certain constraints for multiple scattering: mean free path length & coherence length, sample size / curvature / geometry
** They have to be identified before each experiment
* Multiple scattering is often present in background signals. It can be used also to explicitly enhance signal
* X-ray comparison:
** X-rays: (mostly) strong absorption
** Neutrons:
*** absorption is weak and therefore scattering is of higher intensity.
*** Hydrogen absorption strong
** Be careful when comparing the theory from GISAXS and GISANS!
* How to measure MS?
** GIXOS (grazing incidence X-ray offspecular scattering)
*** Scattering from the object is modulated by the reflectivity, you can deduce reflectivity if you estimate the form factor.
*** Example: ID10 ESRF

(iii) Background handling
* Background subtraction is dependent on:
** sample system/geometry/the observable physics.
* Each system has to be treated in a different way.
* Useful recent work (Jung and Papadakis, J. Appl. Cryst. (2023) 56, 1330–1347) regarding strategy to handle background for fits and simulations to GISAXS patterns.
* A survey will help identifying the necessary / common steps among the community for specific classified systems.
* In case of multiple scattering: Include McStas as standard for GISANS analysis?

(iv) Normalization
* Full quantitative normalization procedure:
** measuring GISANS together with NR & Off-specular scattering, to view the whole Q-space.
*** In NR: fit the data+background to the total signal (instead of subtracting!)
** GISOXS?
* If this is not feasible:
** Same as topic "Background": each system has to be classified for its way "how to be treated" - Survey needed! (Different normalization procedures at different beamlines and for different classes of systems)
* General aspects (sample independent):
** Precise I(lambda) normalization of the beamlines has to be performed
** Good to get a Survey "How is this done at different beamlines currently"?
** Using AI?: Should then contain: (i) dataset that is similar to the experiments and (ii) what this data-set represents (physically)

* Data-reduction:
** Insert corrections for efficiency etc.,
** Uncertainty calculation reproducible?
*** Information on footprint, slits, .. (see detailed notes)
*** Further input to uncertainty apart from countrate?
* Comparison to SAS:
** GISAS = normalization to DB vs. SAS: = calculation of differential cross section (not possible in GISAS)

(v) Using SANS software
* Regarding BornAgain:
** Need a set of prototype models (check what is on the BA webpage) - especially for inexperienced users
*** This should include a very detailed description about its physical limitations, directly implemented into BA sending error messages if overgone.
*** Can we benefit from models in other software packages?
*** SasView: easy user-insertions of new form-factors - learn from that?
*** Package approach in BA problematic?
** Further good features to implement: (i) intensity w.r.t. direct beam, w.r.t multiple scattering background, w.r.t. general expected background (according to experience + commissioning).
** How to get fitting for GISANS working?
* Inspiration from X-ray programs: Brookhaven, Ben Ocko, BornAgain. Other: BoToSim, BoToFit, SpinW

(vi) Instrumentation
* Missing

(vii) Common data format
* Pros and Cons of seperating "reduction" and "analysis", i.e., having an instrument independent analysis without original raw information
** Pro:
*** datasets are transferable between softwares
** Con:
*** Throw away information?
*** Have to understand the inputs and what needs to be kept
*** How to calculate uncertainties?
* Why necessary to define in beginning: Once defined, file formats should not be altered, only extended (e.g. possible in nexus or cansas XML formats)
* Maybe not "throw away" raw counts after reduction, but keep all information? If suitable / manageable: Ask in Survey?

(ix) Magnetic Scattering
* considering ".nxs" files and dimensions: A scan of everything/motor should be considered a dimension in the "nxs". It should not be restricted to 4 dimensions.
* On-the-fly polarization analysis: online corrections are good. But highest precision correction should be done at the end of the experiment before the users go home.
(x) Off-Specular
* Missing

==== Outlook ====
* Letter in "Neutron News"
* Need a survey on : (i) Normalization, Background handling, Instrumentation and (ii) Data formats

==== Detailed Discussion session notes ====

'''POINT A. ToF-GISANS''' 
* Presentation slides: To come
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/ToF-GISANS]]

'''POINT B. Multiple scattering''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:HF_MuSc GISANS.pdf|thumb]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Multiple Scattering]]

'''POINT C. Background handling''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:Background ideas.pdf|thumb]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Background handling]]

'''POINT D. Normalization''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:GISANS-NormalizationDiscussionStarters.pdf|thumb|Introduction to Normalization - Sebastian Jaksch]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Normalization]]

'''POINT E. Using SANS software''' 
* No introduction talk
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Using SANS software]]

'''POINT F / Instrumentation & Q/lambda resolution''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:2026 03 CANSAS Grenoble Resol Fn JFMoulin.pdf|thumb|Introduction to ToF Resolution aspects - Jean-Francois Moulin]]
[[File:TopervergGISANS2026ILL1-part1.pdf|thumb|Talk "DWBA: kinematics, coherence & resolution issues" from Boris Toperverg - Part 1]]
[[File:TopervergGISANS2026ILL1-part2.pdf|thumb|Talk "DWBA: kinematics, coherence & resolution issues" from Boris Toperverg - Part 2]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Instrumentation & Q/lambda resolution]]

'''POINT G. Need good documentation''' 
* No Introduction talk
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Documentation]]

'''POINT H. Integration of McStas with BornAgain''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:HF McStas.pdf|thumb|Introduction on McStas - Henrich Frielinghaus]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/McStas]]

'''POINT I. Get a common data format for GISANS data reduction:''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:GISANS 2026 File Formats - Brian Maranville.pdf|thumb|Introduction on File Formats - Brian Maranville]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Common Data Format]]

'''POINT J. Computer simulations / AI support:''' 
* No Introduction talk
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Computer simulations / AI support]]

'''POINT K. Off-specular scattering:''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:Gutfreund OffSpec new part 1.pdf|thumb|Talk on "Offspecular Scattering" from Philipp Gutfreund - Part 1]]
[[File:Gutfreund OffSpec new part 2.pdf|thumb|Talk on "Offspecular Scattering" from Philipp Gutfreund - Part 2]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Off-Specular Scattering]]

'''POINT L. Magnetic Scattering:''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:Magnetic GISANS.pdf|thumb|Talk on "Magnetic and PA-GISANS" from Annika Stellhorn]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Notes Magnetic Scattering]]

'''POINT M. Data Reduction:''' 
* Presentation slides:
[[File:2026 03 CANSAS Grenoble Data Reduction TOF JFMoulin.pdf|thumb|Introduction to ToF Data Reduction - Jean-Francois Moulin]]
[[File:2026 03 12 Monochromatic GISANS reduction v4.pdf|thumb]]
* Further Notes from the ILL-Workshop on: [[/Notes Data Reduction]]

==== Organizational notes ====

File:Background ideas.pdf

2026-03-19T05:22:54Z

AdrianRennie: Introduction to discussion

== Summary ==
Introduction to discussion

/Background handling

2026-03-19T05:21:58Z

AdrianRennie:

Ideas for discussion were introduced with the following slides:
[[File:Background ideas.pdf|thumb]]

Notes:
* How do you know which type of (multiple coh/incoh.) scattering exists? And then which model for background to use accordingly? Are there approximations?
* always use multiple terms of the DWBA approximation? Where to draw the boundary?
* should we aim at always including a ray tracing approach (like McStas) to consider multiple scattering effects? (see union components McStas): https://mads-bertelsen.github.io/tutorial/Union_tutorial_1_processes_and_materials.html
* this all would strongly affect fitting of GISANS - we guess that this is one reason that no fitting of GISANS exists at the moment?
* typical approach of subtracting background doesnt work if it comes from "the sample itself, i.e., by multiple scattering in the sample"
* can this be "tested" how much the sample affects the background, are there test samples for comparison?
* why not the "typical approach": you subtract the instrument background (has to be well known), and all other "background" has to be from the sample and has to be simulated/fitted? this has then to be known for all wavelength bands and incident angles
* comparison to QENS where signals are always weak - how is that handled? Can what is known from there be taken over? QENS: Start with approximations for the model, and this then has to be refined. Also there the precise knowledge of the sample and the estimations of multiple scattering involved have to be taken into account!
* measure multiple states / dispersions / other observables to decrease ratio (unkown parameters)/(measured parameters)
* how to judge if the simulation (even if fitting perfectly to the data) is the physical correct one? For the question of which parameters are influencing the cross section mostly using bayesian fitting: see papers from Josh (for reflectometry): https://journals.iucr.org/j/issues/2021/04/00/ge5096/ge5096sup1.pdf

*****
group 1

Notes:
Alexandros: going to a corner and measuring bkg

Philipp: this corner you go is below/or above the horizon?
Alexandros: below.

Philipp: below the horizon, you have negative intensities. the corner will be different below or above the horizon.

Alexandros: yes, because you have something that absorbs and scatters at the same time.

Philipp: better to take it below the horizon instrument background.

Alexandros: problem we had usually with bare substrate, we had no other way to estimate bkg.

JF: the incoherent signal you get is not as constant in angle as you expect.

SJ: in GISANS, closer to footprint, after 2 cm is all incoherent.
JF: and inelastic
SJ: instruments masuring reflectometry and GISANS, first you scan through angle (and identify critical edge).
then, use this approach to get average SLD of the sample. problem with this approach would be that no SANS instrument can use this approach. put sample in, first reflectometry (get SLD) and afterwards then GISANS.

intensity and wavelength

Henrich: a SANS machine can do everything a reflectometry machine can do.
Philipp: can cover some angular range to see total reflection.

JF: Yes, but with poor resolution, for subtle variations of SLD this maybe not possible. we try to measure reflectivity curves when we do GISANS measurements.

SJ: is always worth it.

/ToF-GISANS

2026-03-18T22:10:17Z

AdrianRennie:

Time-of-Flight GISANS (near surface scattering) involves all of the issues that have been raised under other topics but some are of particular importance:

* Instrument factors influence measurement strategies and tools are needed to aid this process.

* Background - effects of inelastic scattering can change background.

* Resolution is important both as regards wavelength and angle. The latter depends on collimation as well as footprint on the sample and spatial resolution of the detector. Full interpretation of data is likely to require extensive information to be available with processed data.

* Data reduction from raw data will require establishment of appropriate data formats for input to existing modelling and analysis software. The software may also need development to fully exploit the information that is available.

These highlights drawn from summary discussion should be edited and extended after more input from breakout group discussion.

/ToF-GISANS

2026-03-18T22:09:30Z

AdrianRennie:

Time-of-Flight GISANS (near surface scattering) involves all of the issues that have been raised under other topics but some are of particular importance:

* Instrument factors influence measurement strategies and tools are needed to aid this process

* Background - effects of inelastic scattering can change background

* Resolution is important both as regards wavelength and angle. The latter depends on collimation as well as footprint on the sample and spatial resolution of the detector. Full interpretation of data is likely to require extensive information to be available with processed data.

* Data reduction from raw data will require establishment of appropriate data formats for input to existing modelling and analysis software. The software may also need development to fully exploit the information that is available.

These highlights drawn from summary discussion should be edited and extended after more input from breakout group discussion.

canSAS

2026-03-02T09:27:21Z

AdrianRennie: Add GISANS data reduction workshop

==News==

A workshop on '''GISANS - Advancing Data Reduction and Analysis: [https://workshops.ill.fr/event/573/] will take place 18-19 March 2026 in Grenoble with possibilities for remote participation.'''

'''SAS2024: [https://www.sas2024.tw SAS 2024] took place Nov 3-8, 2024 in Taipei Taiwan.'''

The 25th canSAS anniversary workshop, [https://wiki.cansas.org/index.php/canSAS-2023 canSAS-XIII], was held in Grenoble on October 16-18, 2023

An interim workshop [[canSAS-XII]] was held (in hybrid mode) as a satellite workshop to the Small-Angle Scattering (SAS2022) held in Campinas, Brazil on Monday 12th September 2022 (6-8 pm).

NOTE: As of November 29, 2021, the canSAS wiki has been moved to a new server with a secure certificate (https compatible). In the process, the mediawiki version it is built on was upgraded from 1.18 (last installed ~2012) to the latest LTS version 1.35. Should you see anything missing or broken, please contact Paul Butler at [mailto:butlerpd@udel.edu butlerpd@udel.edu]

A workshop on advanced resolution (initially envisaged by TOF SANS working group) was held [https://indico.esss.lu.se/event/2506 virtually] on March 25 and 25, 2021.

A full workshop, [[canSAS-XI]] was held 8 to 10 July 2019 in Freising Germany.

An interim workshop, [[canSAS-X]] was held on Sunday, October 7, 2018 at Peninsula Room C, Grand Traverse Resort & Spa, Traverse City, Michigan, USA, just before [https://sas2018.anl.gov SAS2018].

The [[canSAS-IX | canSAS-IX]] workshop was held in Northern California on June 5-7 2017 hosted jointly by [http://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/ SSRL] and [https://als.lbl.gov/ ALS].

The [[NXcanSAS]] multi-dimensional (''nD'') standard was released 2017-01-17.

The [[canSAS-VIII | canSAS VIII meeting]] was held in Japan on April 14-16, 2015.

The outcomes of recent canSAS work was presented to the community at a special session on 20 November at the SAS-2012 conference in Sydney, Australia (18 to 23 November 2012). Presentations from this session and other canSAS work are reported on a separate page: [[canSAS_at_the_SAS-2012_Conference]].

There has been a working meeting in Uppsala, Sweden from 28 to 31 July 2012 : [[canSAS-2012 | canSAS 2012]].

The canSAS web site has moved to a new domain: [[http://www.cansas.org www.cansas.org]] - Welcome to our new home! If you spot any broken links or strange behavior, email Andrew (andrew dot jackson at esss dot se).

== Working Groups ==

Working groups are formed as needed to address the various matters of interest to the canSAS.

=== Current Working Groups ===
<categorytree mode=pages hideroot=on>Working Groups</categorytree>

=== Previous Working Groups ===
<categorytree mode=all hideroot=on>Previous Working Groups</categorytree>

/GISANS Data Reduction and Analysis Upgrades Initiative

2025-11-28T08:04:10Z

AdrianRennie: /* “Quick” Roadmap discussion */

=== Overview ===
'''GISANS Data Reduction and Analysis Upgrades Initiative:''' 
An initiative on “GISANS data reduction and analysis upgrades” was launched at the GISAXS-25 meeting in Hamburg in November 2025. The objective of the initiative is to develop a generic, instrument-independent software framework for GISANS data reduction and analysis that can be used across neutron research facilities.

'''Approach:''' 
The proposal is to build upon the open-source software package BornAgain and to identify and define the key developments required for broader GISANS usability. Planned areas of improvement include:
* more flexible treatment of instrument resolution,
* improved background subtraction,
* clearer approaches to normalization,
* increased interoperability with existing analysis and reduction software tools.

'''Planned Work:''' 
A dedicated working group has to be established with two primary tasks:
1. Defining a roadmap and priority list for the required functionality.
2. Implementing these features in collaboration with the BornAgain core development team. Contributions may include code development, example scripts, and other shared resources.

'''Next Steps:''' 
The GISANS community is being invited to participate in the initiative. A first workshop is planned for the first half of 2026, with Institut Laue-Langevin (ILL) proposed as the host venue. The meeting is intended to be held on-site, with the option for remote attendance.

=== Meeting 2025-11-13 ===

'''Participants:''' 
Adrian Rennie (Uppsala Univ.), Apostolos Vagias, Annika Stellhorn (ESS), Dirk Honecker (STFC-ISIS), Artur Glavic (PSI), Sebastian Jaksch (ESS). 
BornAgain team: Joachim Wuttke, Mikhail Svechnikov, Ammar Nejati. 
SAGA Team: Tom Arnold, Tommy Nylander, Max Wolff, Milan Klausz. 

'''Date:''' 
13th November 2025

'''Content:''' 
1. Introduction (Annika) 
2. Current activites in BornAgain (BA) (Joachim Wuttke) 
3. “Quick” Roadmap discussion 
4. Preparation of on-site meeting at ILL 
5. “How-to” 

====Introduction (Annika)====
* Goal: Getting an instrument-independent GISANS software
* Question: (For using BornAgain as such) How to make it attractive for more users? How to implement together more features?
* Answers: Most important to (i) define most necessary items, (ii) keep it simple, (iii) have a core developers team (the current BA-team), that (iv) gets help by python/C++-code contributions by the community – e.g. into a separate repository that will be reviewed by the core team
* Next steps: 2-3 days in-person meeting. Current idea: at ILL. Contributors: from each neutron source (experimentalists + data scientists) + the GISAS core users.

====Current activities in BornAgain (BA) (Joachim Wuttke)====
* BA is an open-source software, everyone can access and contribute
* Idea: Make it simpler, cleaner, more accessible, in the best case community-maintained to get a long-term manageable project
* Nearly everything is possible from Python interface, but not from the GUI.
* The GUI shall not be altered too much for the next coming years
* Plans: First achieving simplification, afterwards working on extensions
* Current biggest challenge: handling of coherent vs. incoherent scattering contributions
* Next goals: Auto-generation of new geometric shapes

====Preparation of On-site meeting at ILL====
* Aim at first half of 2026
* Ask for (i) core-team dates, (ii) community dates

====“Quick” Roadmap discussion====

'''POINT A.+B. ToF-GISANS + Multiple scattering''' 
* Possible in Python / via jupyter notebook in BA. Keep it there.
* Computationally heavy: has to be inserted into BA via slicing it down to monochromatic slices with individual resolution functions
* Needs to be done via ROI-definition
* Complicated for users:
** especially due to complicated connection to multiple scattering & incoherent scattering
** different backgrounds for different lambda/incident angles which is additionally dominated by multiple scattering
* Need to differentiate between: (i) incoherent multiple scattering, (ii) multiple scattering for which Born approximation breaks down
'''POINT C. Background handling''' 
* A challenge for weakly scattering systems
* Connected to points (A) + (B).
* Challenging case of angular-dependent “incoherent multiple scattering” in many soft matter systems
* The generic question “how do we subtract bkg?” becomes relevant as well
* Again, computationally heavy/long. Possible solution: ROI-definition
* Existing user scripts that have proven to work, can be implemented into BA

'''POINT D. Normalization''' 
* In SAS, we put units of cm-1 (or sr-1).
* In reflectivity, data are normally reported as ratio to incident beam (flux or counts).
* In GISAS, not clear consensus as to how data are reported

'''POINT E. Using SANS software''' 
* For data analysis:
** Have the possibility to import missing form factors from e.g. SASView, SASfit?
** need a plug-in feature that is compatible with existing other software, e.g. via FabIO (Can it now read all detector formats into BornAgain?)
* For data reduction:
** Needs to be compatible to existing software like GRASP or MANTID
** Key: well-defined .nxs (canSAS) standard

'''POINT F / Instrumentation & Q/lambda resolution (different detector arrays, or, sample geometries-how is data reduced)''' 
* Instrument-dependent aspects (more than 1 detector arrays with potentially useful and unexploited information, sample geometry, detector-background, polarization efficiency, error-bars) have to be reduced at the instrument as usual
* Calculation of resolution function in proper coordinate system --> can be tricky for non-experts.
* Important for implementation in BornAgain: Q/lambda resolution functions
** Can be implemented fast (via “Issue Tracker” of BornAgain?)
** Best to start from working/existing models
* Polarization-dependent 4-channel calculation could be a pre-defined python script to make it easier for beginners
* GISAXS community might be interested in joining the discussion on resolution functions

'''POINT G. Need good documentation''' 

* To be contributed via “requests”/”patches” to the documentation sources.

'''POINT H. Integration of McStas with BornAgain''' 
* Feedback-loops available (from Artur) between McStas and BornAgain, but no fitting possible

'''POINT I. Get a common data format for GISANS data reduction:''' 
* Making use of canSAS and ORSO standards
* Need to extend both the canSAS/ORSO formats towards GISAS

====“How-to”====
* Keep BA-group as core developers group. Contributions by the community on most urgent items
* have a section on BornAgain source/repository (called contributions). People can put contributions there, not mixing with main core. This does not interfere with complicated C++ core of BornAgain, but would benefit from Python scripts.
* Distribution of notes / goals / etc. + Conversation via cansas
** Need to re-populate and extend the cansas wiki for GISANS
* Occasional in-person workshops, first one at ILL first half of 2026 (aim at max ca. 40 people. Aim that each facility cover the travel costs of the participating individuals?)
** Goal: Extending the roadmap + defining a priority list
** If possible, connection to another event would be appreciated – otherwise we organize it independently
** Partial financing of meeting by SAGA team possible for ca. 10 people
** Making online attendance possible
** If possible, including an overview of current status from BornAgain to all participants

/GISANS Data Reduction and Analysis Upgrades Initiative

2025-11-25T10:41:37Z

AdrianRennie: Add participant

=== Overview ===
'''GISANS Data Reduction and Analysis Upgrades Initiative:''' 
An initiative on “GISANS data reduction and analysis upgrades” was launched at the GISAXS-25 meeting in Hamburg in November 2025. The objective of the initiative is to develop a generic, instrument-independent software framework for GISANS data reduction and analysis that can be used across neutron research facilities.

'''Approach:''' 
The proposal is to build upon the open-source software package BornAgain and to identify and define the key developments required for broader GISANS usability. Planned areas of improvement include:
* more flexible treatment of instrument resolution,
* improved background subtraction,
* clearer approaches to normalization,
* increased interoperability with existing analysis and reduction software tools.

'''Planned Work:''' 
A dedicated working group has to be established with two primary tasks:
1. Defining a roadmap and priority list for the required functionality.
2. Implementing these features in collaboration with the BornAgain core development team. Contributions may include code development, example scripts, and other shared resources.

'''Next Steps:''' 
The GISANS community is being invited to participate in the initiative. A first workshop is planned for the first half of 2026, with Institut Laue-Langevin (ILL) proposed as the host venue. The meeting is intended to be held on-site, with the option for remote attendance.

=== Meeting 2025-11-13 ===

'''Participants:''' 
Adrian Rennie (Uppsala Univ.), Apostolos Vagias, Annika Stellhorn (ESS), Dirk Honecker (STFC-ISIS), Artur Glavic (PSI), Sebastian Jaksch (ESS). 
BornAgain team: Joachim Wuttke, Mikhail Svechnikov, Ammar Nejati. 
SAGA Team: Tom Arnold, Tommy Nylander, Max Wolff, Milan Klausz. 

'''Date:''' 
13th November 2025

'''Content:''' 
1. Introduction (Annika) 
2. Current activites in BornAgain (BA) (Joachim Wuttke) 
3. “Quick” Roadmap discussion 
4. Preparation of on-site meeting at ILL 
5. “How-to” 

====Introduction (Annika)====
* Goal: Getting an instrument-independent GISANS software
* Question: (For using BornAgain as such) How to make it attractive for more users? How to implement together more features?
* Answers: Most important to (i) define most necessary items, (ii) keep it simple, (iii) have a core developers team (the current BA-team), that (iv) gets help by python/C++-code contributions by the community – e.g. into a separate repository that will be reviewed by the core team
* Next steps: 2-3 days in-person meeting. Current idea: at ILL. Contributors: from each neutron source (experimentalists + data scientists) + the GISAS core users.

====Current activities in BornAgain (BA) (Joachim Wuttke)====
* BA is an open-source software, everyone can access and contribute
* Idea: Make it simpler, cleaner, more accessible, in the best case community-maintained to get a long-term manageable project
* Nearly everything is possible from Python interface, but not from the GUI.
* The GUI shall not be altered too much for the next coming years
* Plans: First achieving simplification, afterwards working on extensions
* Current biggest challenge: handling of coherent vs. incoherent scattering contributions
* Next goals: Auto-generation of new geometric shapes

====Preparation of On-site meeting at ILL====
* Aim at first half of 2026
* Ask for (i) core-team dates, (ii) community dates

====“Quick” Roadmap discussion====

'''POINT A.+B. ToF-GISANS + Multiple scattering''' 
* Possible in Python / via jupyter notebook in BA. Keep it there.
* Computationally heavy: has to be inserted into BA via slicing it down to monochromatic slices with individual resolution functions
* Needs to be done via ROI-definition
* Complicated for users:
** especially due to complicated connection to multiple scattering & incoherent scattering
** different backgrounds for different lambda/incident angles which is additionally dominated by multiple scattering
* Need to differentiate between: (i) incoherent multiple scattering, (ii) multiple scattering for which Born Approximation breaks down
'''POINT C. Background handling''' 
* A challenge for weakly scattering systems
* Connected to points (A) + (B).
* Challenging case of angular-dependent “incoherent multiple scattering” in many soft matter systems
* The generic question “how do we subtract bkg?” becomes relevant as well
* Again, computationally heavy/long. Possible solution: ROI-definition
* Existing user scripts that have proven to work, can be implemented into BA

'''POINT D. Normalization''' 
* In SAS, we put units of cm-1 (or sr-1).
* In reflectivity, data are normally reported as ratio to incident beam (flux or counts).
* In GISAS, not clear consensus as to how data are reported

'''POINT E. Using SANS software''' 
* For data analysis:
** Have the possibility to import missing form factors from e.g. SASView, SASfit?
** need a plug-in feature that is compatible with existing other software, e.g. via FabIO (Can it now read all detector formats into BornAgain?)
* For data reduction:
** Needs to be compatible to existing software like GRASP or MANTID
** Key: well-defined .nxs (canSAS) standard

'''POINT F / Instrumentation & Q/lambda resolution (different detector arrays, or, sample geometries-how is data reduced)''' 
* Instrument-dependent aspects (more than 1 detector arrays with potentially useful and unexploited information, sample geometry, detector-background, polarization efficiency, error-bars) have to be reduced at the instrument as usual
* Calculation of resolution function in proper coordinate system --> can be tricky for non-experts.
* Important for implementation in BornAgain: Q/lambda resolution functions
** Can be implemented fast (via “Issue Tracker” of BornAgain?)
** Best to start from working/existing models
* Polarization-dependent 4-channel calculation could be a pre-defined python script to make it easier for beginners
* GISAXS community might be interested in joining the discussion on resolution functions

'''POINT G. Need good documentation''' 

* To be contributed via “requests”/”patches” to the documentation sources.

'''POINT H. Integration of McStas with BornAgain''' 
* Feedback-loops available (from Artur) between McStas and BornAgain, but no fitting possible

'''POINT I. Get a common data format for GISANS data reduction:''' 
* Making use of canSAS and ORSO standards
* Need to extend both the canSAS/ORSO formats towards GISAS

====“How-to”====
* Keep BA-group as core developers group. Contributions by the community on most urgent items
* have a section on BornAgain source/repository (called contributions). People can put contributions there, not mixing with main core. This does not interfere with complicated C++ core of BornAgain, but would benefit from Python scripts.
* Distribution of notes / goals / etc. + Conversation via cansas
** Need to re-populate and extend the cansas wiki for GISANS
* Occasional in-person workshops, first one at ILL first half of 2026 (aim at max ca. 40 people. Aim that each facility cover the travel costs of the participating individuals?)
** Goal: Extending the roadmap + defining a priority list
** If possible, connection to another event would be appreciated – otherwise we organize it independently
** Partial financing of meeting by SAGA team possible for ca. 10 people
** Making online attendance possible
** If possible, including an overview of current status from BornAgain to all participants

/GISANS Data Reduction and Analysis Upgrades Initiative

2025-11-25T10:36:23Z

AdrianRennie: Full names of participants and affiliations

=== Overview ===
'''GISANS Data Reduction and Analysis Upgrades Initiative:''' 
An initiative on “GISANS data reduction and analysis upgrades” was launched at the GISAXS-25 meeting in Hamburg in November 2025. The objective of the initiative is to develop a generic, instrument-independent software framework for GISANS data reduction and analysis that can be used across neutron research facilities.

'''Approach:''' 
The proposal is to build upon the open-source software package BornAgain and to identify and define the key developments required for broader GISANS usability. Planned areas of improvement include:
* more flexible treatment of instrument resolution,
* improved background subtraction,
* clearer approaches to normalization,
* increased interoperability with existing analysis and reduction software tools.

'''Planned Work:''' 
A dedicated working group has to be established with two primary tasks:
1. Defining a roadmap and priority list for the required functionality.
2. Implementing these features in collaboration with the BornAgain core development team. Contributions may include code development, example scripts, and other shared resources.

'''Next Steps:''' 
The GISANS community is being invited to participate in the initiative. A first workshop is planned for the first half of 2026, with Institut Laue-Langevin (ILL) proposed as the host venue. The meeting is intended to be held on-site, with the option for remote attendance.

=== Meeting 2025-11-13 ===

'''Participants:''' 
Adrian Rennie (Uppsala Univ.), Apostolos Vagias, Annika Stellhorn (ESS), Dirk Honecker (STFC-ISIS), Artur Glavic (PSI). 
BornAgain team: Joachim Wuttke, Mikhail Svechnikov, Ammar Nejati. 
SAGA Team: Tom Arnold, Tommy Nylander, Max Wolff, Milan Klausz. 

'''Date:''' 
13th November 2025

'''Content:''' 
1. Introduction (Annika) 
2. Current activites in BornAgain (BA) (Joachim Wuttke) 
3. “Quick” Roadmap discussion 
4. Preparation of on-site meeting at ILL 
5. “How-to” 

====Introduction (Annika)====
* Goal: Getting an instrument-independent GISANS software
* Question: (For using BornAgain as such) How to make it attractive for more users? How to implement together more features?
* Answers: Most important to (i) define most necessary items, (ii) keep it simple, (iii) have a core developers team (the current BA-team), that (iv) gets help by python/C++-code contributions by the community – e.g. into a separate repository that will be reviewed by the core team
* Next steps: 2-3 days in-person meeting. Current idea: at ILL. Contributors: from each neutron source (experimentalists + data scientists) + the GISAS core users.

====Current activities in BornAgain (BA) (Joachim Wuttke)====
* BA is an open-source software, everyone can access and contribute
* Idea: Make it simpler, cleaner, more accessible, in the best case community-maintained to get a long-term manageable project
* Nearly everything is possible from Python interface, but not from the GUI.
* The GUI shall not be altered too much for the next coming years
* Plans: First achieving simplification, afterwards working on extensions
* Current biggest challenge: handling of coherent vs. incoherent scattering contributions
* Next goals: Auto-generation of new geometric shapes

====Preparation of On-site meeting at ILL====
* Aim at first half of 2026
* Ask for (i) core-team dates, (ii) community dates

====“Quick” Roadmap discussion====

'''POINT A.+B. ToF-GISANS + Multiple scattering''' 
* Possible in Python / via jupyter notebook in BA. Keep it there.
* Computationally heavy: has to be inserted into BA via slicing it down to monochromatic slices with individual resolution functions
* Needs to be done via ROI-definition
* Complicated for users:
** especially due to complicated connection to multiple scattering & incoherent scattering
** different backgrounds for different lambda/incident angles which is additionally dominated by multiple scattering
* Need to differentiate between: (i) incoherent multiple scattering, (ii) multiple scattering for which Born Approximation breaks down
'''POINT C. Background handling''' 
* A challenge for weakly scattering systems
* Connected to points (A) + (B).
* Challenging case of angular-dependent “incoherent multiple scattering” in many soft matter systems
* The generic question “how do we subtract bkg?” becomes relevant as well
* Again, computationally heavy/long. Possible solution: ROI-definition
* Existing user scripts that have proven to work, can be implemented into BA

'''POINT D. Normalization''' 
* In SAS, we put units of cm-1 (or sr-1).
* In reflectivity, data are normally reported as ratio to incident beam (flux or counts).
* In GISAS, not clear consensus as to how data are reported

'''POINT E. Using SANS software''' 
* For data analysis:
** Have the possibility to import missing form factors from e.g. SASView, SASfit?
** need a plug-in feature that is compatible with existing other software, e.g. via FabIO (Can it now read all detector formats into BornAgain?)
* For data reduction:
** Needs to be compatible to existing software like GRASP or MANTID
** Key: well-defined .nxs (canSAS) standard

'''POINT F / Instrumentation & Q/lambda resolution (different detector arrays, or, sample geometries-how is data reduced)''' 
* Instrument-dependent aspects (more than 1 detector arrays with potentially useful and unexploited information, sample geometry, detector-background, polarization efficiency, error-bars) have to be reduced at the instrument as usual
* Calculation of resolution function in proper coordinate system --> can be tricky for non-experts.
* Important for implementation in BornAgain: Q/lambda resolution functions
** Can be implemented fast (via “Issue Tracker” of BornAgain?)
** Best to start from working/existing models
* Polarization-dependent 4-channel calculation could be a pre-defined python script to make it easier for beginners
* GISAXS community might be interested in joining the discussion on resolution functions

'''POINT G. Need good documentation''' 

* To be contributed via “requests”/”patches” to the documentation sources.

'''POINT H. Integration of McStas with BornAgain''' 
* Feedback-loops available (from Artur) between McStas and BornAgain, but no fitting possible

'''POINT I. Get a common data format for GISANS data reduction:''' 
* Making use of canSAS and ORSO standards
* Need to extend both the canSAS/ORSO formats towards GISAS

====“How-to”====
* Keep BA-group as core developers group. Contributions by the community on most urgent items
* have a section on BornAgain source/repository (called contributions). People can put contributions there, not mixing with main core. This does not interfere with complicated C++ core of BornAgain, but would benefit from Python scripts.
* Distribution of notes / goals / etc. + Conversation via cansas
** Need to re-populate and extend the cansas wiki for GISANS
* Occasional in-person workshops, first one at ILL first half of 2026 (aim at max ca. 40 people  can each facility cover the travel costs of the participating individuals?)
** Goal: Extending the roadmap + defining a priority list
** If possible, connection to another event would be appreciated – otherwise we organize it independently
** Partial financing of meeting by SAGA team possible for ca. 10 people
** Making online attendance possible
** If possible, including an overview of current status from BornAgain to all participants

/GISANS Data Reduction and Analysis Upgrades Initiative

2025-11-25T10:23:25Z

AdrianRennie: Some clarification and correction of typos

=== Overview ===
'''GISANS Data Reduction and Analysis Upgrades Initiative:''' 
An initiative on “GISANS data reduction and analysis upgrades” was launched at the GISAXS-25 meeting in Hamburg in November 2025. The objective of the initiative is to develop a generic, instrument-independent software framework for GISANS data reduction and analysis that can be used across neutron research facilities.

'''Approach:''' 
The proposal is to build upon the open-source software package BornAgain and to identify and define the key developments required for broader GISANS usability. Planned areas of improvement include:
* more flexible treatment of instrument resolution,
* improved background subtraction,
* clearer approaches to normalization,
* increased interoperability with existing analysis and reduction software tools.

'''Planned Work:''' 
A dedicated working group has to be established with two primary tasks:
1. Defining a roadmap and priority list for the required functionality.
2. Implementing these features in collaboration with the BornAgain core development team. Contributions may include code development, example scripts, and other shared resources.

'''Next Steps:''' 
The GISANS community is being invited to participate in the initiative. A first workshop is planned for the first half of 2026, with Institut Laue-Langevin (ILL) proposed as the host venue. The meeting is intended to be held on-site, with the option for remote attendance.

=== Meeting 2025-11-13 ===

'''Participants:''' 
Adrian, Apostolos, Annika, Dirk, Artur. 
BornAgain team: Joachim, Mikail, Ammar. 
SAGA Team: Tom, Tommy, Max, Milan

'''Date:''' 
13th November 2025

'''Content:''' 
1. Introduction (Annika) 
2. Current activites in BornAgain (BA) (Joachim Wuttke) 
3. “Quick” Roadmap discussion 
4. Preparation of on-site meeting at ILL 
5. “How-to” 

====Introduction (Annika)====
* Goal: Getting an instrument-independent GISANS software
* Question: (For using BornAgain as such) How to make it attractive for more users? How to implement together more features?
* Answers: Most important to (i) define most necessary items, (ii) keep it simple, (iii) have a core developers team (the current BA-team), that (iv) gets help by python/C++-code contributions by the community – e.g. into a separate repository that will be reviewed by the core team
* Next steps: 2-3 days in-person meeting. Current idea: at ILL. Contributors: from each neutron source (experimentalists + data scientists) + the GISAS core users.

====Current activities in BornAgain (BA) (Joachim Wuttke)====
* BA is an open-source software, everyone can access and contribute
* Idea: Make it simpler, cleaner, more accessible, in the best case community-maintained to get a long-term manageable project
* Nearly everything is possible from Python interface, but not from the GUI.
* The GUI shall not be altered too much for the next coming years
* Plans: First achieving simplification, afterwards working on extensions
* Current biggest challenge: handling of coherent vs. incoherent scattering contributions
* Next goals: Auto-generation of new geometric shapes

====Preparation of On-site meeting at ILL====
* Aim at first half of 2026
* Ask for (i) core-team dates, (ii) community dates

====“Quick” Roadmap discussion====

'''POINT A.+B. ToF-GISANS + Multiple scattering''' 
* Possible in Python / via jupyter notebook in BA. Keep it there.
* Computationally heavy: has to be inserted into BA via slicing it down to monochromatic slices with individual resolution functions
* Needs to be done via ROI-definition
* Complicated for users:
** especially due to complicated connection to multiple scattering & incoherent scattering
** different backgrounds for different lambda/incident angles which is additionally dominated by multiple scattering
* Need to differentiate between: (i) incoherent multiple scattering, (ii) multiple scattering for which Born Approximation breaks down
'''POINT C. Background handling''' 
* A challenge for weakly scattering systems
* Connected to points (A) + (B).
* Challenging case of angular-dependent “incoherent multiple scattering” in many soft matter systems
* The generic question “how do we subtract bkg?” becomes relevant as well
* Again, computationally heavy/long. Possible solution: ROI-definition
* Existing user scripts that have proven to work, can be implemented into BA

'''POINT D. Normalization''' 
* In SAS, we put units of cm-1 (or sr-1).
* In reflectivity, data are normally reported as ratio to incident beam (flux or counts).
* In GISAS, not clear consensus as to how data are reported

'''POINT E. Using SANS software''' 
* For data analysis:
** Have the possibility to import missing form factors from e.g. SASView, SASfit?
** need a plug-in feature that is compatible with existing other software, e.g. via FabIO (Can it now read all detector formats into BornAgain?)
* For data reduction:
** Needs to be compatible to existing software like GRASP or MANTID
** Key: well-defined .nxs (canSAS) standard

'''POINT F / Instrumentation & Q/lambda resolution (different detector arrays, or, sample geometries-how is data reduced)''' 
* Instrument-dependent aspects (more than 1 detector arrays with potentially useful and unexploited information, sample geometry, detector-background, polarization efficiency, error-bars) have to be reduced at the instrument as usual
* Calculation of resolution function in proper coordinate system --> can be tricky for non-experts.
* Important for implementation in BornAgain: Q/lambda resolution functions
** Can be implemented fast (via “Issue Tracker” of BornAgain?)
** Best to start from working/existing models
* Polarization-dependent 4-channel calculation could be a pre-defined python script to make it easier for beginners
* GISAXS community might be interested in joining the discussion on resolution functions

'''POINT G. Need good documentation''' 

* To be contributed via “requests”/”patches” to the documentation sources.

'''POINT H. Integration of McStas with BornAgain''' 
* Feedback-loops available (from Artur) between McStas and BornAgain, but no fitting possible

'''POINT I. Get a common data format for GISANS data reduction:''' 
* Making use of canSAS and ORSO standards
* Need to extend both the canSAS/ORSO formats towards GISAS

====“How-to”====
* Keep BA-group as core developers group. Contributions by the community on most urgent items
* have a section on BornAgain source/repository (called contributions). People can put contributions there, not mixing with main core. This does not interfere with complicated C++ core of BornAgain, but would benefit from Python scripts.
* Distribution of notes / goals / etc. + Conversation via cansas
** Need to re-populate and extend the cansas wiki for GISANS
* Occasional in-person workshops, first one at ILL first half of 2026 (aim at max ca. 40 people  can each facility cover the travel costs of the participating individuals?)
** Goal: Extending the roadmap + defining a priority list
** If possible, connection to another event would be appreciated – otherwise we organize it independently
** Partial financing of meeting by SAGA team possible for ca. 10 people
** Making online attendance possible
** If possible, including an overview of current status from BornAgain to all participants

Final Discussion

2025-02-18T05:02:15Z

AdrianRennie:

<big>'''Notes from FINAL canSAS 2024 General Discussion'''</big> 

__TOC__

'''Meetings and Workshops'''
* Outreach at universities : Mu Ping Nieh - workshop at U Conn ... Topic??
* Meeting in 2025 at ESS? Resolution and data formats, who and what?
* Resolution discussion

'''Joe Kline list'''
* Andy Smith / Diamond
* Anna Sokolova / Ansto
* Elliot Gilbert / Ansto
* Peter Beaucage / NIST
* Lionel Porcar / ILL
* Jan Ilavsky / APS
* Sylvain Prevost / ILL
* Wim Bouwman / Delft
* Anja Hormann /BAM
* Christian Gollwitzer / PTB

'''supporting standard sample? Difficult'''
* Find samples that look like what we normally measure (Sylvain) - need to have something that is of the same geometry and setup as normal samples.
* Discussion of different samples : AJJ suggested block copolymers
* Membrane samples from Brian Pauw
** Anna S : was difficult for standard due to orientation requirements
** Wim B : worked well for SESANS

'''Outreach / Dissemination hackathon/working group'''
* Sample environment get together online (Katie W)
* Topical group : reduction (Anna) : should it be a working group?

'''Discussion of future meetings ...'''
* regular canSAS before SAS?
* small working group meetings?

PLAN :
* working group meetings
* online discussion in year
* general canSAS meeting in 2026 or early 2027

* Sylvain suggests that a topical discusssion at RALSAS in ~ 4 months would be a good way to engage a broader community and students. Where? RAL. Rob Dalgliesh and Rob Rambo organising?

AI Notes

2024-12-04T17:51:14Z

AdrianRennie:

<big>'''Notes from canSAS 2024 AI/ML in SAS Topical Presentation/Discussion'''</big> 

__TOC__
* Talk
** AI is pervasive
*** The most impactful AI applications will be outside he facility wall, these mostly demand good, reduced data
** Decision ready data
*** bespoke GUI reduction is unnecessarily user-unfriendly, AND prevents future data-intensive work
** Accessible documented API
*** Magic cable story
*** We should more regularly support outside decision engines as the 'center of the universe' with the instrument as a subordinate worker

* Discussion
** Andrew Jackson
*** Accessible documented API is good, public internet is not going to happen. All instruments should be able to be ‘plugged into’
** Brian Pauw
*** Has solution for rolling nexus/NxCansas into scicat
** Jan Ilavsky
*** Instrument control from open internet is not going to happen; decision is in wrong hands
*** Why not just use EPICS?
**** A: We’ve done that.
*** People hate tiled/bluesky
** Unknown person
*** How do you make sure the AI doesn’t break your instrument or put the instrument in a bad state?
**** A: This is a problem with the instrument. If the instrument can be put in that state, it’s the instruments problem
** Unknown Person
*** How to preserve privacy of data for use in ML/AI applications?
**** A: Good important question, no easy answers
** Adrian Rennie
*** Comment about “center of the universe”. Should be broader. All instruments should be switchable between these two views
*** How to get the users integrated into the decision making?
**** A: Human-machine interfaces is important. Code and efforts exists (Tsuchinoko)
** Brian Pauw
*** We should support and push for instruments that aren’t the center of the universe
** Tanny Chavez
*** Uncertainty quantification?
**** A: Yes, very important

First WG Discussion

2024-11-25T14:01:04Z

AdrianRennie:

<big>'''Notes from canSAS 2024 First Working Group Discussion Session'''</big> 
'''Includes:'''
* Information and Dissemination
* Sample Environments
* Grazing Incidence
* Reproducibility and Reliability

__TOC__

=Information and Dissemination - Paul Butler (UD/NIST)=
==Notes pre-update==
Discussion on Recruiting students and postdoc, increase participation
* Anna Sokolova (ANSTO): Today’s canSAS has no virtual attendance - How can more students and PostDocs be brought into the workshop?
* Mu-Ping Nieh (UConn): Suggestion to hold a workshop at University of Connecticut to draw in computer science and engineering students
Discussion on formalizing canSAS as an organization
* More formal organization with board and voting may make things more complicated
* International Scattering Alliance (ISA, Chair: Tim Snow, Treasurer: Andrew Jackson), Non-Profit in Sweden - holds and pays for domain names, membership subscriptions for ISA received from ESS, Uppsala University.
* No funding means that there are typical registration fees for longer canSAS workshop
* Currently no Donate button for ISA, registration underway
* Grants (e.g. NSF may pay for students to travel to canSAS meetings)
==Notes from Updates==
Current Activities
* Wiki
** Access request to Paul Butler, will be approved. Some limits on who edits are needed otherwise bots overrun.
** Major effort to upgrade
* Webpages
** Moved to canSAS github.io
** Simpler to add editors now
** The domain cansas.org is now “owned” by ISA
* Mailing list
** Mailman2 version had too high maintenance
** Moved to Google Groups, mostly unused
** SESANS using jicsmail, does not have a generic sign up page ( will look into this)
** New attempt with MailMan3 in progress
* SAS Portal Project
** Software page especially popular (7k/year, 65k/year visits on front page)
* new.smallangles.org - major refactor with updating and porting in process
* Github (cansas), mostly for data formats
* Tutorials, lots of interest, but no-one stepped up to do so under the canSAS organization
* Draft for resolution paper
* Will need help for determining services

==Notes from Discussion==

=Sample Environments - Nick Terrill (Diamond)=
==Notes from Updates==
* Subgroup RheoSAS
** Met with Anton Paar to discuss SAS-Rheometer: Progress towards being able to communicate with
** Interested in doing a (virtual) working group subgroup meeting?
*** EPICS drivers
*** Direct control
*** Quartz cup and bob
*** Email to Katie Weigandt (NCNR), dedicated meeting late 2024 or early 2025

* User brought sample environments
** Problems: Not designed to be integrated, using different operating system, don’t use the right cables, triggered weirdly, user wants all variables saved with the facility data.
** EPICS Integrations - Diamond/ISIS working on this, ESS also experimenting with this (talk to ESS Sample Environments Team) - email Tim Snow
** Link with International Society of Sample Environments
==Notes from Discussion==
It is good to maintain links and contact with International Society of Sample Environments

=Grazing Incidence - Anja Hörmann (BAM)=
==Notes from Updates==
'''History'''
Formation in 2015, new iteration in 2024
Survey
* Call for participation - So far 16 answers, open since Jul 18, 2024
* Data set to be published
* SAXS, and 2 types of SANS sources are represented
* So far only Europe and North America, GISANS
'''To Do list:'''
* Contact previously active people
* Increase diversity
* Finding modus operandi
* Establish Mailing list

==Notes from Discussion==
* Paul Butler (NIST):Any restrictions on the Geometry - Analysis is different for near surface scattering than for evanescent wave
* Annika Stellhorn (ESS): Discussion on standards?
* Volker Urban (ORNL): Should be more inclusive to have more participation from Neutrons

=Reproducibility and Reliability - Adrian Rennie (Uppsala)=
==Notes from Updates==
* Used to be called “Standardization”
* Do I believe my data and my interpretation?
* Joe Kline: Round robin with grating as potential new standard reference material for momentum transfer
** Designed material with 2 characteristic spacings, wants to do round robin before release, tungsten, primarily for SAXS, prototype available (although there have been some production issues)
** SRM 3605, and some other unknown, well-characterized test sample.
** Provide estimated pitch for SRM 3605, will return certified calibration
* Glassy Carbon round robin - was circulated through canSAS community
* Candidates for other test sample
** Needs to be reproducible
* Recruitment of participants
* Further standards for intensity or momentum transfer?
* Different ways of round robins
** Blind can have a use
** Revising data reduction, reported again, activity is useful
* Talk about reduction in context of round robin
==Notes from Discussion==

=General Discussion=
SECoP: The Sample Environment Communication Protocol (ISSE activity)
* Some drivers running at NIST
* ESS Octopy, does it work?
* Has been suggested that SECoP will not be interoperable at Oak Ridge?
* Not a true standard -- just a protocol?
* EPICS drivers can be quite specific.
* An additional layer may be needed

canSAS: Facility staff used not to be nomadic (temporarily the case) - users may not care so much about plug and play?
NXcanSAS:
* Glen Smales: Data from 17 different instruments, all different - Use of standard format not wide-spread
* Andrew Jackson, ESS: To do on formats: No survey yet
* Eliot Gilbert (ANSTO) SASView and Mantid can save reduced data in Cansas Nexus.
* Uptake higher at Neutrons, less at synchrotrons
* Paul Butler (NIST)
** 1d data, often put out as ASCII, but 2d or multi-dimensional data is more complicated
** Laid the groundwork is important
* Encourage adoption as a community
* For lab SAXS, discussion with vendors may be needed.

* Yun Liu (NIST): There has been a focus on throughput, but is current practice viable for weak scattering? We are sometimes pushing the limit in regards to intensity where background is dominating. It would be good to have a round robin for looking at how reliably we can do this .. both at low and high Q.
* For X-ray instruments, there is often reliance on calibration of e.g. detector relative efficiency by vendors - understanding of typical calibration problems not uniform
* Liz Kelley (NCNR): Errors in terms of counting statistics?
* Counting statistics is easy to account for, but other sources of errors are difficult to capture. Sharing of best practice would be great.
* Elliot Gilbert (ANSTO): In the context of the SAS portal asked whether links to existing videos are possible?
* Paul Butler responded that the original idea of the portal was to fill in missing information and link to existing resources when they are available.

User:AdrianRennie

2024-11-22T12:58:07Z

AdrianRennie:

Adrian Rennie,
Department of Chemistry,
Uppsala University
Uppsala, Sweden

First WG Discussion

2024-11-21T13:34:10Z

AdrianRennie: /* Notes from Updates */ minor corrections

<big>'''Notes from canSAS 2024 First Working Group Discussion Session'''</big> 
'''Includes:'''
* Information and Dissemination
* Sample Environments
* Grazing Incidence
* Reproducibility and Reliability

__TOC__

=Information and Dissemination - Paul Butler (UD/NIST)=
==Notes pre-update==
Discussion on Recruiting students and postdoc, increase participation
* Anna Sokolova (ANSTO): Today’s canSAS has no virtual attendance - How can more students and PostDocs be brought into the workshop?
* Mu-Ping Nieh (UConn): Suggestion to hold a workshop at University of Connecticut to draw in computer science and engineering students
Discussion on formalizing canSAS as an organization
* More formal organization with board and voting may make things more complicated
* International Scattering Alliance (Chair: Tim Snow, Treasurer: Andrew Jackson), Non-Profit in Sweden - holds and pays for domain names, membership subscriptions received from ESS, Uppsala University.
* No funding means that there are typical registration fees for longer canSAS workshop
* Currently no Donate button, registration underway
* Grants (e.g. NSF may pay for students to travel)
==Notes from Updates==
Current Activities
* Wiki
** Access request to Paul Butler, will be approved, otherwise bots overrun
** Major effort to upgrade
* Webpages
** Moved to canSAS github.io
** Simpler to add editors now
** The domain cansas.org is now “owned” by ISA
* Mailing list
** Mailman2 version had too high maintenance
** Moved to Google Groups, mostly unused
** SESANS using jicsmail, does not have a generic sign up page ( will look into this)
** New attempt with MailMan3 in progress
* SAS Portal Project
** Software page especially popular (7k/year, 65k/year visits on front page)
* new.smallangles.org - major refactor with updating and porting in process
* Github (cansas), mostly for data formats
* Tutorials, lots of interest, but no-one stepped up to do so under the canSAS organization
* Draft for resolution paper
* Will need help for determining services

==Notes from Discussion==

=Sample Environments - Nick Terrill (Diamond)==
==Notes from Updates==
* Subgroup RheoSAS
** Met with Anton Paar to discuss SAS-Rheometer: Progress towards being able to communicate with
** Interested in doing a (virtual) working group subgroup meeting?
*** EPICS drivers
*** Direct control
*** Quartz cup and bob
*** Email to Katie.Weigandt, dedicated meeting late 2024 or early 2025

* User brought sample environments
** Problems: Not designed to be integrated, using different operating system, don’t use the right cables, triggered weirdly, user wants all variables saved with the facility data.
** EPICS Integrations - Diamond/ISIS working on this, ESS also experimenting with this (talk to ESS Sample Environments Team) - email Tim Snow
** Link with International Society of Sample Environments
==Notes from Discussion==
It is good to maintain links and contact with International Society of Sample Environments

=Grazing Incidence - Anja Hörmann (BAM)=
==Notes from Updates==
'''History'''
Formation in 2015, new iteration in 2024
Survey
* Call for participation - So far 16 answers, open since Jul 18, 2024
* Data set to be published
* SAXS, and 2 types of SANS sources are represented
* So far only Europe and North America, GISANS
'''To Do list:'''
* Contact previously active people
* Increase diversity
* Finding modus operandi
* Establish Mailing list

==Notes from Discussion==
* Paul Butler(NIST):Any restrictions on the Geometry - Analysis is different for near surface scattering than for evanescent wave
* Annika Stellhorn(ESS): Discussion on standards?
* Volker Urban (ORNL): Should be more inclusive to have more participation from Neutrons

=Reproducibility and Reliability - Adrian Rennie (Uppsala)==
==Notes from Updates==
* Used to be called “Standardization”
* Do I believe my data and my interpretation?
* Joe Kline: Round robin with Grating as potential new standard reference material for momentum transfer
** Designed material with 2 characteristic spacings, wants to do round robin before release, Tungsten, primarily for SAXS, prototype available (although some production issues)
** Unlabeled SRM 3605, other unknown, well-characterized test sample.
** Provide estimated pitch for SRM 3605, will return certified calibration
* Glassy Carbon round robin - was circulated through canSAS community
* Candidates for other test sample
** Needs to be reproducible
* Recruitment of participants
* Further standards for intensity or momentum transfer?
* Different ways of round robins
** Blind can have a use
** Revising data reduction, reported again, activity is useful
* Talk about reduction in context of round robin
==Notes from Discussion==

=General Discussion=
SECoP: The Sample Environment Communication Protocol (ISSE activity)
* Some drivers running at NIST
* ESS Octopy, does it work?
* Has been suggested that SECoP will not be interoperable at Oak Ridge?
* Not a true standard -- just a protocol?
* EPICS drivers can be quite specific.
* An additional layer may be needed

canSAS: Facility staff used not to be nomadic (temporarily the case) - users may not care so much about plug and play?
NXcanSAS:
* Glen Smales: Data from 17 different instruments, all different - Use of standard format not wide-spread
* Andrew Jackson, ESS: To do on formats: No survey yet
* Eliot Gilbert (ANSTO) SASView and Mantid can save reduced data in Cansas Nexus.
* Uptake higher at Neutrons, less at synchrotrons
* Paul Butler (NIST)
** 1d data, often put out as ASCII, but 2d or multi-dimensional data is more complicated
** Laid the groundwork is important
* Encourage adoption as a community
* For lab SAXS, discussion with vendors may be needed.

* Yun Liu (NIST): There has been a focus on throughput, but is current practice viable for weak scattering? We are sometimes pushing the limit in regards to intensity where background is dominating. It would be good to have a round robin for looking at how reliably we can do this .. both at low and high Q.
* For X-ray instruments, there is often reliance on calibration of e.g. detector relative efficiency by vendors - understanding of typical calibration problems not uniform
* Liz Kelley (NCNR): Errors in terms of counting statistics?
* Counting statistics is easy to account for, but other sources of errors are difficult to capture. Sharing of best practice would be great.
* Elliot Gilbert (ANSTO): In the context of the SAS portal asked whether links to existing videos are possible?
* Paul Butler responded that the original idea of the portal was to fill in missing information and link to existing resources when they are available.

First WG Discussion

2024-11-21T13:29:10Z

AdrianRennie: /* General Discussion */ some clarifications

<big>'''Notes from canSAS 2024 First Working Group Discussion Session'''</big> 
'''Includes:'''
* Information and Dissemination
* Sample Environments
* Grazing Incidence
* Reproducibility and Reliability

__TOC__

=Information and Dissemination - Paul Butler (UD/NIST)=
==Notes pre-update==
Discussion on Recruiting students and postdoc, increase participation
* Anna Sokolova (ANSTO): Today’s canSAS has no virtual attendance - How can more students and PostDocs be brought into the workshop?
* Mu-Ping Nieh (UConn): Suggestion to hold a workshop at University of Connecticut to draw in computer science and engineering students
Discussion on formalizing canSAS as an organization
* More formal organization with board and voting may make things more complicated
* International Scattering Alliance (Chair: Tim Snow, Treasurer: Andrew Jackson), Non-Profit in Sweden - holds and pays for domain names, membership subscriptions received from ESS, Uppsala University.
* No funding means that there are typical registration fees for longer canSAS workshop
* Currently no Donate button, registration underway
* Grants (e.g. NSF may pay for students to travel)
==Notes from Updates==
Current Activities
* Wiki
** Access request to Paul Butler, will be approved, otherwise bots overrun
** Major effort to upgrade
* Webpages
** Moved to canSAS github.io
** Simpler to add editors now
** The domain cansas.org is now “owned” by ISA
* Mailing list
** Mailman2 version had too high maintenance
** Moved to Google Groups, mostly unused
** SESANS using jicsmail, does not have a generic sign up page ( will look into this)
** New attempt with MailMan3 in progress
* SAS Portal Project
** Software page especially popular (7k/year, 65k/year visits on front page)
* new.smallangles.org - major refactor with updating and porting in process
* Github (cansas), mostly for data formats
* Tutorials, lots of interest, but no-one stepped up to do so under the canSAS organization
* Draft for resolution paper
* Will need help for determining services

==Notes from Discussion==

=Sample Environments - Nick Terrill (Diamond)==
==Notes from Updates==
* Subgroup RheoSAS
** Met with Anton Paar to discuss SAS-Rheometer: Progress towards being able to communicate with
** Interested in doing a (virtual) working group subgroup meeting?
*** EPICS drivers
*** Direct control
*** Quartz cup and bob
*** Email to Katie.Weigandt, dedicated meeting late 2024 or early 2025

* User brought sample environments
** Problems: Not designed to be integrated, using different operating system, don’t use the right cables, triggered weirdly, user wants all variables saved with the facility data.
** EPICS Integrations - Diamond/ISIS working on this, ESS also experimenting with this (talk to ESS Sample Environments Team) - email Tim Snow
** Link with International Society of Sample Environments
==Notes from Discussion==
It is good to maintain links and contact with International Society of Sample Environments

=Grazing Incidence - Anja Hörmann (BAM)=
==Notes from Updates==
'''History'''
Formation in 2015, new iteration in 2024
Survey
* Call for participation - So far 16 answers, open since Jul 18, 2024
* Data set to be published
* SANS, and 2 types of SAXS sources are represented
* So far only Europe and North America, GISANS
'''ToDo list:'''
* Contact previously active people
* Increase diversity
* Finding modus operandi
* Establish Mailing list
==Notes from Discussion==
* Paul Butler(NIST):Any restrictions on the Geometry - Analysis is different for near surface scattering than for evanescent wave
* Annika Stellhorn(ESS): Discussion on standards?
* Volker Urban (ORNL): Should be more inclusive to have more participation from Neutrons

=Reproducibility and Reliability - Adrian Rennie (Uppsala)==
==Notes from Updates==
* Used to be called “Standardization”
* Do I believe my data and my interpretation?
* Joe Kline: Round robin with Grating as potential new standard reference material for momentum transfer
** Designed material with 2 characteristic spacings, wants to do round robin before release, Tungsten, primarily for SAXS, prototype available (although some production issues)
** Unlabeled SRM 3605, other unknown, well-characterized test sample.
** Provide estimated pitch for SRM 3605, will return certified calibration
* Glassy Carbon round robin - was circulated through canSAS community
* Candidates for other test sample
** Needs to be reproducible
* Recruitment of participants
* Further standards for intensity or momentum transfer?
* Different ways of round robins
** Blind can have a use
** Revising data reduction, reported again, activity is useful
* Talk about reduction in context of round robin
==Notes from Discussion==

=General Discussion=
SECoP: The Sample Environment Communication Protocol (ISSE activity)
* Some drivers running at NIST
* ESS Octopy, does it work?
* Has been suggested that SECoP will not be interoperable at Oak Ridge?
* Not a true standard -- just a protocol?
* EPICS drivers can be quite specific.
* An additional layer may be needed

canSAS: Facility staff used not to be nomadic (temporarily the case) - users may not care so much about plug and play?
NXcanSAS:
* Glen Smales: Data from 17 different instruments, all different - Use of standard format not wide-spread
* Andrew Jackson, ESS: To do on formats: No survey yet
* Eliot Gilbert (ANSTO) SASView and Mantid can save reduced data in Cansas Nexus.
* Uptake higher at Neutrons, less at synchrotrons
* Paul Butler (NIST)
** 1d data, often put out as ASCII, but 2d or multi-dimensional data is more complicated
** Laid the groundwork is important
* Encourage adoption as a community
* For lab SAXS, discussion with vendors may be needed.

* Yun Liu (NIST): There has been a focus on throughput, but is current practice viable for weak scattering? We are sometimes pushing the limit in regards to intensity where background is dominating. It would be good to have a round robin for looking at how reliably we can do this .. both at low and high Q.
* For X-ray instruments, there is often reliance on calibration of e.g. detector relative efficiency by vendors - understanding of typical calibration problems not uniform
* Liz Kelley (NCNR): Errors in terms of counting statistics?
* Counting statistics is easy to account for, but other sources of errors are difficult to capture. Sharing of best practice would be great.
* Elliot Gilbert (ANSTO): In the context of the SAS portal asked whether links to existing videos are possible?
* Paul Butler responded that the original idea of the portal was to fill in missing information and link to existing resources when they are available.

canSAS-XII

2024-11-13T17:46:35Z

AdrianRennie:

CanSAS-XII will be held in '''hybrid''' mode as a satellite workshop to SAS2022 in Campinas, Brazil on Tuesday 13th of September . ('''NOTE''' In order to avoid overlapping with the poster session on Monday, we have moved the meeting to the Tuesday.)

__TOC__

= Purpose =

The primary purpose of this meeting is for the canSAS (collective action for nomadic Small-Angle Scatterers) community to check-in again after the last few years of limited contact, as well as to seed further discussion throughout the SAS conference in Campinas.
We plan for a short workshop (2-3 hours), which will include brief updates on some of the major themes of CanSAS, with a short time for discussion.
Current members as well as those who have not been involved with CanSAS before are more than welcome.
This workshop should be a great opportunity to get a taster of what CanSAS is about.

== Meeting Location ==

The SAS2022 Conference will take place at the Royal Palm Hall Convention Center in Campinas-SP, Brazil.
We will run this session in hybrid mode as well.

== Schedule ==
'''NOTE''': Change of schedule in order to better accommodate hybrid speakers

Tuesday 13th September

Morning session (8:30-10 am Sao Paulo time):
* 8:30-8:40 am Introduction from the co-organisers
* 8:40-10:00 am Update presentations (10-15 mins each including time for discussion):
**8:40-8:55 am Steven Parnell
**8:55-9:10 am Wojciech Potrzebowski
**9:10-9:25 am Dirk Honecker
**9:25-9:40 am Tim Snow
**9:40-9:55 am Annika Stellhorn
* 9:55-10:00 am Wrap-up for the evening session

Evening session (6-8 pm Sao Paulo time):
* 6:00-6:10 pm Introduction from the co-organisers
* 6:10-8:00 pm Parallel working groups (4-5 small groups), with an attempt at hybrid.
** [[GroupI_canSAS-XII | Report]] from Group I (in person group)
** [[GroupII_canSAS-XII | Report]] from Group II (remote group on zoom)

== Presentations (10 min. each) ==
Speakers will be remote and in-person 
1. Steven Parnell : SESANS 
2. Wojciech Potrzebowski : resolution functions 
3. Annika Stellhorn : magnetism SANS analysis 
4. Tim Snow : multiprobe and multimodal analysis 
5. Dirk Honecker : time-of-flight/magnetism data reduction

2024 Worshop

2024-11-13T17:43:58Z

AdrianRennie: Add slides from sample environment presentation

== Agenda ==
{| {{Tablestyle}}|-
! {{Headcellstyle}} | time
! {{Headcellstyle}} | activity
! {{Headcellstyle}} | title
|-
! 09:15 - 09:25
| align="center" style="background:#dce6f1" | Introduction ''Session Chair:'' Liz Kelley (NIST-CNR)
| style="background:#dce6f1" | Welcome and Plan Of the Day - U-Ser Jeng (NSRRC)
|-
! 09:25 - 09:45
| align="center" style="background:#dce6f1" | Introduction ''Session Chair:'' Liz Kelley (NCNR)
| style="background:#dce6f1"| canSAS Introduction and Background- Paul Butler (UD/NCNR) [[media:canSAS2024-KickOff.pdf | Presentation slides]]
|-
! rowspan="4"|09:45 - 10:25
| rowspan="4" align="center" style="background:#dce6f1" |Working Group Status Updates (~ 8 min + 2 min questions each) ''Session Chair:'' Liz Kelley (NCNR)
| style="background:#dce6f1" | Information and Dissemination Paul Butler (UD/NIST) [[media:canSAS2024 InformationAndDisseminationWG.pdf | Presentation slides]]
|-
| style="background:#dce6f1"| Sample Environments Nick Terrill (Diamond) [[media:canSAS_Sample_Environments.pdf | Presentation slides]]
|-
| style="background:#dce6f1"| Grazing Incidence Anja Hörmann (BAM) [[media:canSAS GISAS Hormann.pdf | Presentation slides]]
|-
| style="background:#dce6f1"| Reproducibility and Reliability Adrian Rennie (Uppsala) [[media:canSAS Repr Rel report 2024.pdf | Presentation slides]]
|-
! 10:25 - 10:45
| align="center" style="background:bisque" | Discussion ''Moderator/scribe:'' Andrew Jackson (ESS) and '''Wiebke Koepp (LBL)'''
| align="center" style="background:bisque" | General [[First WG Discussion | Discussion]] on Working Group presentations
|-
! 10:45 - 11:15
| align="center" style="background:#f2f2f2" | Break
| style="background:#f2f2f2" | coffee/tea
|-
! rowspan="4"|11:15 - 11:55
| rowspan="4" align="center" style="background:#dce6f1" |Working Group Status Updates (~ 8 min + 2 min questions each) ''Session Chair:'' Volker Urban (ORNL)
| style="background:#dce6f1"| Data Formats Andrew Jackson (ESS) [[media:DWFG-update.pdf | Presentation slides]]
|-
| style="background:#dce6f1"| TOF SANS Andrew Jackson (ESS) [[media:TOFWG-update.pdf | Presentation slides]]
|-
| style="background:#dce6f1"| SESANS Wim Bouwman (Delft) [[media:SESANSWG canSAS2024.pdf | Presentation slides]]
|-
| style="background:#dce6f1"| Tomography Tim Snow (Diamond) [[Tomography Notes | Notes]]
|-
! 11:55 - 12:15
| align="center" style="background:bisque" | Discussion ''Moderator/Scribe:'' Steve King (ISIS) and '''Annika Stelhorn (ESS)'''
| align="center" style="background:bisque" | General [[Second WG Discussion | Discussion]] on Working Group presentations
|-
! 12:15 - 12:25
| align="center" style="background:#f2f2f2" | Group Photo
| style="background:#f2f2f2" | Group Photo
|-
! 12:25 - 12:40
| align="center" style="background:#f2f2f2" | LUNCH
| style="background:#f2f2f2" | Pick up lunch boxes in hall
|-
! 12:40 - 13:05
| align="center" style="background:bisque" | Working LUNCH ''Moderator/Scribe:'' '''Adrian Rennie (Uppsala)''' and '''Andrew Jackson'''
| align="center" style="background:bisque" | [[Lunch Discussion | Lunch Discussion]] (next general meeting (canSASXV) etc)
|-
! 13:05 - 13:35
| rowspan="2" align="center" style="background:#e4dfec" | Topical Presentations/Discussions: 5 to 20 min presentation followed by discussion for each ''Session Chair:'' Anja Hörmann (BAM)
| style="background:#e4dfec" | [[media:sokolova SAS2024 CanSAS reduction for WiKi.pdf | Data Reduction]] Anna Sokolova (ANSTO) ''Scribe:'' '''Sylvain Prevost (ILL)''' [[Data Reduction Notes | Notes]]
|-
! 13:35 - 14:05
| style="background:#e4dfec" | [[media:CanSAS DataBase Discussion.pdf | Databases]] Wiebke Koepp (LBL) ''Scribe:'' '''Brian Pauw (BAM)''' [[Databases Notes | Notes]]
|-
! 14:05 - 14:35
| align="center" style="background:#f2f2f2" | Break
| style="background:#f2f2f2" | coffee/tea
|-
! 14:35 - 15:05
| align="center" style="background:#e4dfec" | Topical Presentations/Discussions: 5 to 20 min presentation followed by discussion for each ''Session Chair:'' Anja Hörmann (BAM)
| style="background:#e4dfec" | [[media:canSAS2024 AIandMLinSAS Discussion.pdf| AI/ML in SAS]] Peter Beaucage (NIST) ''Scribe:'' '''TBA''' [[AI Notes | Notes]]
|-
! 15:05 - 15:25
| align="center" style="background:bisque" | Discussion ''Moderator/Scribe:'' Tim Snow (Diamond) and '''Andrew Smith (Diamond)'''
| align="center" style="background:bisque" | [[Topical Discussion | Discuss/define possible needs for action]]
|-
! 15:25 - 15:45
| align="center" style="background:bisque"| Discussion ''Moderator/Scribe:'' Adrian Rennie (Uppsala) and Paul Butler (UD/NCNR)
| style="background:bisque" | [[Final Discussion | Going Forward]]
* Call for workshops
* Call for volunteers/sign up to mailing lists
|-
! 15:45
| align="center" style="background:#f2f2f2" | ADJOURN and breakout discussions
| style="background:#f2f2f2" |Formal/informal WG discussions
|-
! 16:00
| align="center" style="background:#f2f2f2" | SAS-2024 OPENING RECEPTION
| style="background:#f2f2f2" | Ongoing informal discussions and party
|}

File:canSAS Sample Environments.pdf

2024-11-13T17:40:45Z

AdrianRennie: Presentation slides for sample environment working group

== Summary ==
Presentation slides for sample environment working group

canSAS-XIV

2024-11-12T09:54:24Z

AdrianRennie:

As usual canSAS will hold some events in conjunction with the triennial [https://www.sas2024.tw/ SAS2024] meeting being held in Taipei Taiwan from 3-8 November 2024. canSAS-XIV will include a half day session on Sunday prior to the meeting and an open informational lunch session on Monday.

__TOC__

= Purpose =

The acronym canSAS stands for ''collective action for nomadic Small Angle Scatterers''. It is a bottom-up effort originally initiated in Grenoble by Ron Ghosh (ILL), Roland May (ILL), Peter Timmins (ILL), Claudio Ferrero (ESRF) and Wim Bras (DUBBLE CRG) in 1998. Ever since it has been an ongoing activity to provide the small-angle scattering user community with shared tools for data reduction and analysis, and disseminating other pertinent information (https://www.cansas.org). Lately the focus has been on data analysis and modelling software, instrument resolution corrections and other issues related to data interpretation.

A several day independent meeting is held every few years while shorter meetings are planned at the triennial SAS conferences to take advantage of the convening of the larger community as a whole.

= Activities =

* [[2024_Worshop | Sunday Workshop - Program]]
* [[media:canSAS2024Lunch.pdf | Monday Lunch presentation]]

= Session notes =
'''Working Group Discussion Notes'''
* [[First WG Discussion | First WG Discussion Session]]
* [[Second WG Discussion | Second WG Discussion Session]]

'''Topical Discussion Notes'''
* [[Data Reduction Notes | Data Reduction Session]]
* [[Databases Notes | Database Session]]
* [[AI Notes | AI/ML in SAS Session]]
* [[Topical Discussion |General Topical Discussion Session]]

'''Closing Discussion Notes'''
[[Final Discussion | Going Forward]]

= Organising Committee =

* Paul Butler (NIST)
* U-Ser Jeng (NSRRC)
* Orion Shih (NSRRC)
* Adrian Rennie (Uppsala U)
* Steve King (ISIS)
* Wojciech Potrzebowski (SciLifeLab)

== Workshop photo(s) ==

{|
[[File:LINE ALBUM 2024113 Day1 241103 92.jpg| 550px]] || [[File:LINE ALBUM 2024113 Day1 241103 83.jpg | 550px]]
|}

First WG Discussion

2024-11-12T09:28:54Z

AdrianRennie:

<big>'''Notes from canSAS 2024 First Working Group Discussion Session'''</big> 
'''Includes:'''
* Information and Dissemination
* Sample Environments
* Grazing Incidence
* Reproducibility and Reliability

__TOC__

=Information and Dissemination - Paul Butler (UD/NIST)=
==Notes pre-update==
Discussion on Recruiting students and postdoc, increase participation
* Anna Sokolova (ANSTO): Today’s canSAS has no virtual attendance - How can more students and PostDocs be brought into the workshop?
* Mu-Ping Nieh (UConn): Suggestion to hold a workshop at University of Connecticut to draw in computer science and engineering students
Discussion on formalizing canSAS as an organization
* More formal organization with board and voting may make things more complicated
* International Scattering Alliance (Chair: Tim Snow, Treasurer: Andrew Jackson), Non-Profit in Sweden - holds and pays for domain names, membership subscriptions received from ESS, Uppsala University.
* No funding means that there are typical registration fees for longer canSAS workshop
* Currently no Donate button, registration underway
* Grants (e.g. NSF may pay for students to travel)
==Notes from Updates==
Current Activities
* Wiki
** Access request to Paul Butler, will be approved, otherwise bots overrun
** Major effort to upgrade
* Webpages
** Moved to canSAS github.io
** Simpler to add editors now
** The domain cansas.org is now “owned” by ISA
* Mailing list
** Mailman2 version had too high maintenance
** Moved to Google Groups, mostly unused
** SESANS using jicsmail, does not have a generic sign up page ( will look into this)
** New attempt with MailMan3 in progress
* SAS Portal Project
** Software page especially popular (7k/year, 65k/year visits on front page)
* new.smallangles.org - major refactor with updating and porting in process
* Github (cansas), mostly for data formats
* Tutorials, lots of interest, but no-one stepped up to do so under the canSAS organization
* Draft for resolution paper
* Will need help for determining services

==Notes from Discussion==

=Sample Environments - Nick Terrill (Diamond)==
==Notes from Updates==
* Subgroup RheoSAS
** Met with Anton Paar to discuss SAS-Rheometer: Progress towards being able to communicate with
** Interested in doing a (virtual) working group subgroup meeting?
*** EPICS drivers
*** Direct control
*** Quartz cup and bob
*** Email to Katie.Weigandt, dedicated meeting late 2024 or early 2025

* User brought sample environments
** Problems: Not designed to be integrated, using different operating system, don’t use the right cables, triggered weirdly, user wants all variables saved with the facility data.
** EPICS Integrations - Diamond/ISIS working on this, ESS also experimenting with this (talk to ESS Sample Environments Team) - email Tim Snow
** Link with International Society of Sample Environments
==Notes from Discussion==
It is good to maintain links and contact with International Society of Sample Environments

=Grazing Incidence - Anja Hörmann (BAM)=
==Notes from Updates==
'''History'''
Formation in 2015, new iteration in 2024
Survey
* Call for participation - So far 16 answers, open since Jul 18, 2024
* Data set to be published
* SANS, and 2 types of SAXS sources are represented
* So far only Europe and North America, GISANS
'''ToDo list:'''
* Contact previously active people
* Increase diversity
* Finding modus operandi
* Establish Mailing list
==Notes from Discussion==
* Paul Butler(NIST):Any restrictions on the Geometry - Analysis is different for near surface scattering than for evanescent wave
* Annika Stellhorn(ESS): Discussion on standards?
* Volker Urban (ORNL): Should be more inclusive to have more participation from Neutrons

=Reproducibility and Reliability - Adrian Rennie (Uppsala)==
==Notes from Updates==
* Used to be called “Standardization”
* Do I believe my data and my interpretation?
* Joe Kline: Round robin with Grating as potential new standard reference material for momentum transfer
** Designed material with 2 characteristic spacings, wants to do round robin before release, Tungsten, primarily for SAXS, prototype available (although some production issues)
** Unlabeled SRM 3605, other unknown, well-characterized test sample.
** Provide estimated pitch for SRM 3605, will return certified calibration
* Glassy Carbon round robin - was circulated through canSAS community
* Candidates for other test sample
** Needs to be reproducible
* Recruitment of participants
* Further standards for intensity or momentum transfer?
* Different ways of round robins
** Blind can have a use
** Revising data reduction, reported again, activity is useful
* Talk about reduction in context of round robin
==Notes from Discussion==

=General Discussion=
SECoP: The Sample Environment Communication Protocol (ISSE activity)
* Some drivers running at NIST
* ESS Octopy, does it work?
* Has been suggested that SECoP will not be interoperable at Oak Ridge?
* Not a true standard -- just a protocol?
* EPICS drivers can be quite specific.
* An additional layer may be needed

canSAS: Facility staff used not to be nomadic (temporarily the case) - users may not care so much about plug and play?
NXcanSAS:
* Glen Smales: Data from 17 different instruments, all different - Use of standard format not wide-spread
* Andrew Jackson, ESS: Todo on formats: No survey yet
* Eliot Gilbert (ANSTO) SASView and Mantid can save reduced data in Cansas Nexus.
* Uptake higher at Neutrons, less at synchrotrons
* Paul Butler (NIST)
** 1d data, often put out as ASCII, but 2d data is more complicated
** Layed the groundwork is important
* Encourage adoption as a community
* For lab SAXS, discussion with vendors may be needed.

* Yun Liu (NIST): There has been a focus on throughput, but is current practice viable for weak scattering? We are sometimes pushing the limit in regards to intensity where background is dominating. It would be good to have a round robin for looking at how reliably we can do this .. both at low and high Q.
* Reliance on calibration by vendors - understanding of typical calibration problems not uniform
* Liz Kelley (NCNR): Errors in terms of counting statistics?
* Counting statistics is easy to account for, but other sources of errors are difficult to capture. Sharing of best practice would be great.
* Elliot Gilbert (ANSTO): Link of existing videos?
* Original idea of the portal was to fill in blanks in information and link to existing resources when available.

First WG Discussion

2024-11-12T09:27:39Z

AdrianRennie: correct spelling and typography

<big>'''Notes from canSAS 2024 First Working Group Discussion Session'''</big> 
'''Includes:'''
* Information and Dissemination
* Sample Environments
* Grazing Incidence
* Reproducibility and Reliability

__TOC__

=Information and Dissemination - Paul Butler (UD/NIST)=
==Notes pre-update==
Discussion on Recruiting students and postdoc, increase participation
* Anna Sokolova (ANSTO): Today’s canSAS has no virtual attendance - How can more students and PostDocs be brought into the workshop?
* Mu-Ping Nieh (UConn): Suggestion to hold a workshop at University of Connecticut to draw in computer science and engineering students
Discussion on formalizing canSAS as an organization
* More formal organization with board and voting may make things more complicated
* International Scattering Alliance (Chair: Tim Snow, Treasurer: Andrew Jackson), Non-Profit in Sweden - holds and pays for domain names, membership subscriptions received from ESS, Uppsala University.
* No funding means that there are typical registration fees for longer canSAS workshop
* Currently no Donate button, registration underway
* Grants (e.g. NSF may pay for students to travel)
==Notes from Updates==
Current Activities
* Wiki
** Access request to Paul Butler, will be approved, otherwise bots overrun
** Major effort to upgrade
* Webpages
** Moved to canSAS github.io
** Simpler to add editors now
** The domain cansas.org is now “owned” by ISA
* Mailing list
** Mailman2 version had too high maintenance
** Moved to Google Groups, mostly unused
** SESANS using jicsmail, does not have a generic sign up page ( will look into this)
** New attempt with MailMan3 in progress
* SAS Portal Project
** Software page especially popular (7k/year, 65k/year visits on front page)
* new.smallangles.org - major refactor with updating and porting in process
* Github (cansas), mostly for data formats
* Tutorials, lots of interest, but no-one stepped up to do so under the canSAS organization
* Draft for resolution paper
* Will need help for determining services

==Notes from Discussion==

=Sample Environments - Nick Terrill (Diamond)==
==Notes from Updates==
* Subgroup RheoSAS
** Met with Anton Paar to discuss SAS-Rheometer: Progress towards being able to communicate with
** Interested in doing a (virtual) working group subgroup meeting?
*** EPICS drivers
*** Direct control
*** Quartz cup and bob
*** Email to Katie.Weigandt, dedicated meeting late 2024 or early 2025

* User brought sample environments
** Problems: Not designed to be integrated, using different operating system, don’t use the right cables, triggered weirdly, user wants all variables saved with the facility data.
** EPICS Integrations - Diamond/ISIS working on this, ESS also experimenting with this (talk to ESS Sample Environments Team) - email Tim Snow
** Link with International Society of Sample Environments
==Notes from Discussion==
It is good to maintain links and contact with International Society of Sample Environments

=Grazing Incidence - Anja Hörmann (BAM)=
==Notes from Updates==
'''History'''
Formation in 2015, new iteration in 2024
Survey
* Call for participation - So far 16 answers, open since Jul 18, 2024
* Data set to be published
* SANS, and 2 types of SAXS sources are represented
* So far only Europe and North America, GISANS
'''ToDo list:'''
* Contact previously active people
* Increase diversity
* Finding modus operandi
* Establish Mailing list
==Notes from Discussion==
* Paul Butler(NIST):Any restrictions on the Geometry - Analysis is different for near surface scattering than for evanescent wave
* Annika Stellhorn(ESS): Discussion on standards?
* Volker Urban (ORNL): Should be more inclusive to have more participation from Neutrons

=Reproducibility and Reliability - Adrian Rennie (Uppsala)==
==Notes from Updates==
* Used to be called “Standardization”
* Do I believe my data and my interpretation?
* Joe Kline: Round robin with Grating as potential new standard reference material for momentum transfer
** Designed material with 2 characteristic spacings, wants to do round robin before release, Tungsten, primarily for SAXS, prototype available (although some production issues)
** Unlabeled SRM 3605, other unknown, well-characterized test sample.
** Provide estimated pitch for SRM 3605, will return certified calibration
* Glassy Carbon round robin - was circulated through canSAS community
* Candidates for other test sample
** Needs to be reproducible
* Recruitment of participants
* Further standards for intensity or momentum transfer?
* Different ways of round robins
** Blind can have a use
** Revising data reduction, reported again, activity is useful
* Talk about reduction in context of round robin
==Notes from Discussion==

=General Discussion=
SECoP: The Sample Environment Communication Protocol (ISSE activity)
* Some drivers running at NIST
* ESS Octopy, does it work?
* Has been suggested that SECoP will not be interoperable at Oak Ridge?
* Not a true standard -- just a protocol?
* EPICS drivers can be quite specific.
* An additional layer may be needed

canSAS: Facility staff used not to be nomadic (temporarily the case) - users may not care so much about plug and play?
NXcanSAS:
* Glen Smales: Data from 17 different instruments, all different - Use of standard format not wide-spread
* Andrew Jackson, ESS: Todo on formats: No survey yet
* Eliot Gilbert (ANSTO) SASView and Mantid can save reduced data in Cansas Nexus.
* Uptake higher at Neutrons, less at synchrotrons
* Paul Butler (NIST)
** 1d data, often put out as ASCII, but 2d data is more complicated
** Layed the groundwork is important
* Encourage adoption as a community
* For lab SAXS, discussion with vendors may be needed.

* Yun Liu (NIST): There has been a focus on throughput, but is current practice viable for weak scattering? We are sometimes pushing the limit in regards to intensity where background is dominating. It would be good to have a round Robbin for looking at how reliably we can do this .. both at low and high Q.
* Reliance on calibration by vendors - understanding of typical calibration problems not uniform
* Liz Kelley (NCNR): Errors in terms of counting statistics?
* Counting statistics is easy to account for, but other sources of errors are difficult to capture. Sharing of best practice would be great.
* Elliot Gilbert (ANSTO): Link of existing videos?
* Original idea of the portal was to fill in blanks in information and link to existing resources when available.

First WG Discussion

2024-11-12T08:06:52Z

AdrianRennie:

<big>'''Notes from canSAS 2024 First Working Group Discussion Session'''</big> 
'''Includes:'''
* Information and Dissemination
* Sample Environments
* Grazing Incidence
* Reproducibility and Reliability

__TOC__

=Information and Dissemination - Paul Butler (UD/NIST)=
==Notes pre-update==
Discussion on Recruiting students and postdoc, increase participation
* Anna Sokolova (ANSTO): Today’s CanSAS has no virtual attendance - How can more students and PostDocs be brought into the workshop?
* Mu-Ping Nieh (UConn): Suggestion to hold a workshop at University of Connecticut to draw in computer science and engineering students
Discussion on formalizing CanSAS as an organization
* More formal organization with board and voting may make things more complicated
* International Scattering Alliance (Chair: Tim Snow, Treasurer: Andrew Jackson), Non-Profit in Sweden - holds and pays for domain names, membership subscriptions received from ESS, Uppsala University.
* No funding means that there are typical registration fees for longer canSAS workshop
* Currently no Donate button, registration underway
* Grants (e.g. NSF may pay for students to travel)
==Notes from Updates==
Current Activities
* Wiki
** Access to request to Paul Butler, will be approved, otherwise bots overrun
** Major effort to upgrade
* Webpages
** Moved to CanSAS github.io
** Simpler to add editors now
** The domain cansas.org is now “owned” by ISA
* Mailing list
** Mailman2 version had too high maintenance
** Moved to Google Groups, mostly unused
** SESANS using jicsmail, does not have a generic sign up page ( will look into this)
** New attempt with MailMan3 in progress
* SAS Portal Project
** Software page especially popular (7k/year, 65k/year visits on front page)
* new.smallangles.org - major refactor with updating and porting in process
* Github (cansas), mostly for data formats
* Tutorials, lots of interest, but no-one stepped up to do so under the canSAS organization
* Draft for resolution paper
* Will need help for determining services

==Notes from Discussion==

=Sample Environments - Nick Terrill (Diamond)==
==Notes from Updates==
* Subgroup RheoSAS
** Met with Anton Paar to discuss SAS-Rheometer: Progress towards being able to communicate with
** Interested in doing a (virtual) working group subgroup meeting?
*** EPICS drivers
*** Direct control
*** Quartz cup and bob
*** Email to Katie.Weigandt, dedicated meeting late 2024 or early 2025

* User brought sample environments
** Problems: Not designed to be integrated, using different operating system, don’t use the right cables, triggered weirdly, user wants all variables saved with the facility data.
** EPICS Integrations - Diamond/ISIS working on this, ESS also experimenting with this (talk to ESS Sample Environments Team) - email Tim Snow
** Link with International Society of Sample Environments
==Notes from Discussion==
Link with International Society of Sample Environments

=Grazing Incidence - Anja Hörmann (BAM)=
==Notes from Updates==
'''History'''
Formation in 2015, new iteration in 2024
Survey
* Call for participation - So far 16 answers, open since Jul 18, 2024
* Data set to be published
* SANS, and 2 types of SAXS sources are represented
* So far only Europe and North America, GISANS
'''ToDo list:'''
* Contact previously active people
* Increase diversity
* Finding modus of operandi
* Establish Mailing list
==Notes from Discussion==
* Paul Butler(NIST):Any restrictions on the Geometry - Analysis is different for near surface scattering than for evanescent wave
* Annika Stellhorn(ESS): Discussion on standards?
* Volker Urban (ORNL): Should be more inclusive to have more participation from Neutrons

=Reproducibility and Reliability - Adrian Rennie (Uppsala)==
==Notes from Updates==
* Used to be called “Standardization”
* Do I believe my data and my interpretation?
* Joe Klein: Round robin with Grating as potential new standard reference material for momentum transfer
** Designed material with 2 characteristic spacings, wants to do round robin before release, Tungsten, primarily for SAXS, prototype available (although some production issues)
** Unlabeled SRM 3605, other unknown, well-characterized test sample.
** Provide estimated pith for SRM 3605, will return certified calibration
* Glassy Carbon round robin - circulated through CanSAS community
* Candidates for other test sample
** Needs to be reproducible
* Recruitment of participants
* Further standards for intensity or momentum transfer?
* Different ways of round robins
** Blind can have a use
** Revising data reduction, reported again, activity is useful
* Talk about reduction in context of round robin
==Notes from Discussion==

=General Discussion=
SECoP: The Sample Environment Communication Protocol (ISSE activity)
* Some drivers running at NIST
* ESS Octopy, does it work?
* Has been suggested that SECoP will not be interoperable at Oak Ridge?
* Not a true standard -- just a protocol?
* EPICS drivers can be quite specific.
* An additional layer may be needed

canSAS: Facility staff used to not be nomadic (temporarily the case) - users may not care so much about plug and play?
NXcanSAS:
* Glen Smales: Data from 17 different instruments, all different - Use of standard format not wide-spread
* Andrew Jackson, ESS: Todo on formats: No survey yet
* Eliot Gilbert (ANSTO) SASView and Mantid can save reduced data in Cansas Nexus.
* Uptake higher at Neutrons, less at synchrotrons
* Paul Butler (NIST)
** 1d data, often put out as ASCII, but 2d data is more complicated
** Laid the groundwork is important
* Encourage adoption as a community
* For lab SAXS, discussion with vendors may be needed.

* Yun Liu (NIST): There has been a focus on throughput, but is current practice viable for weak scattering? We are sometimes pushing the limit in regards to intensity where background is dominating. It would be good to have a round Robbin for looking at how reliably we can do this .. both at low and high Q.
* Reliance on calibration by vendors - understanding of typical calibration problems not uniform
* Liz Kelley (NCNR): Errors in terms of counting statistics?
* Counting statistics is easy to account for, but other sources of errors are difficult to capture. Sharing of best practice would be great.
* Elliot Gilbert (ANSTO): Link of existing videos?
* Original idea of the portal was to fill in blanks in information and link to existing resources when available.

Data Reduction Notes

2024-11-10T16:03:50Z

AdrianRennie: Correct report of statement to make it more precise.

<big>'''Notes from canSAS 2024 Data Reduction Topical Presentation/Discussion'''</big> 

__TOC__

=Information:=
BILBY is a useful playground given its 5 detectors and its ability to work both monochromatic with velocity selector or ToF, providing variable resolution.

Interventions by Adrian Rennie (Uppsala University, Adrian.Rennie@kemi.uu.se), Tyler Martin (NIST, tyler.martin@nist.gov), Brian Pauw (BAM, brian.pauw@bam.de), Andrew Jackson (ESS, andrew.jackson@ess.eu), Glen J Smales (BAM, glen.smales@bam.de)

=Topic of high-q background subtraction:=

=Topic of autoscaling traceability:=

* Brian Pauw (BAM) suggests to avoid entirely the issue of stitching by scaling each configuration to absolute units [if absolute scale is excellent in every instance and therefore no adjustment is necessary, which is not always the case].

=Topic of transmission values:=

* Adrian Rennie (Uppsala University) states that the physics behind transmission should be used to make a proper fit; the modelling of transmission vs wavelength can go therefore beyond a simple polynomial especially if there are edges in the energy range experimentally accessed.

* Glen J Smales (Diamond) asks that how the transmission is determined must be indicated. What solid angle range is used for that? And when you’re measuring the incident flux somewhere else (further upstream) than the “transmitted” flux, is it actually comparable?

=Topic of uncertainties:=

* Andrew Jackson (ESS) asks how to account for uncertainties that are not a result of scattering counting statistics? E.g. uncertainties on transmission factors.

* Brian Pauw (BAM) ask how multiple uncertainties could be handled. How to deal with correlation between errors? It remains an open question [probably would have to be dealt with by the data analysis software].

* Adrian Rennie (Uppsala University) informs that to his knowledge most data reduction packages do not include correct treatment of correlated random errors such as those arising when the same detector efficiency corrections are used for several components in a measurement series (sample, background, etc.).

=Topic of overall data reduction process:=

* Tyler Martin (NIST) mentions Reductus, a graph-based description of the sequence of data reduction. See publication https://doi.org/10.1107/S1600576718011974. Andrew Jackson indicates that ESS is doing something similar.

* Brian Pauw (BAM) mentions his universal data correction work, explaining that by experience it becomes easy to see if there are mistakes, and at what stage of the data corrections.

2024 Worshop

2024-11-03T23:20:56Z

AdrianRennie: Add slides from report

== Agenda ==
{| {{Tablestyle}}|-
! {{Headcellstyle}} | time
! {{Headcellstyle}} | activity
! {{Headcellstyle}} | title
|-
! 09:15 - 09:25
| align="center" style="background:#dce6f1" | Introduction ''Session Chair:'' Liz Kelley (NIST-CNR)
| style="background:#dce6f1" | Welcome and Plan Of the Day - U-Ser Jeng (NSRRC)
|-
! 09:25 - 09:45
| align="center" style="background:#dce6f1" | Introduction ''Session Chair:'' Liz Kelley (NCNR)
| style="background:#dce6f1"| canSAS Introduction and Background- Paul Butler (UD/NCNR)
|-
! rowspan="4"|09:45 - 10:25
| rowspan="4" align="center" style="background:#dce6f1" |Working Group Status Updates (~ 8 min + 2 min questions each) ''Session Chair:'' Liz Kelley (NCNR)
| style="background:#dce6f1" | Information and Dissemination Paul Butler (UD/NIST) 
|-
| style="background:#dce6f1"| Sample Environments Nick Terrill (Diamond)
|-
| style="background:#dce6f1"| Grazing Incidence Anja Hörmann (BAM)
|-
| style="background:#dce6f1"| Reproducibility and Reliability Adrian Rennie (Uppsala) [[File:canSAS Repr Rel report 2024.pdf|thumb|alt=Presentation slides|Presentation slides]]
|-
! 10:25 - 10:45
| align="center" style="background:bisque" | Discussion ''Moderator/scribe:'' Andrew Jackson (ESS) and '''Wiebke Koepp (LBL)'''
| align="center" style="background:bisque" | General [[First WG Discussion | Discussion]] on Working Group presentations
|-
! 10:45 - 11:15
| align="center" style="background:#f2f2f2" | Break
| style="background:#f2f2f2" | coffee/tea
|-
! rowspan="4"|11:15 - 11:55
| rowspan="4" align="center" style="background:#dce6f1" |Working Group Status Updates (~ 8 min + 2 min questions each) ''Session Chair:'' Volker Urban (ORNL)
| style="background:#dce6f1"| Data Formats Andrew Jackson (ESS)
|-
| style="background:#dce6f1"| TOF SANS Andrew Jackson (ESS)
|-
| style="background:#dce6f1"| SESANS Wim Bouwman (Delft)
|-
| style="background:#dce6f1"| Tomography Tim Snow (Diamond)
|-
! 11:55 - 12:15
| align="center" style="background:bisque" | Discussion ''Moderator/Scribe:'' Steve King (ISIS) and '''Annika Stelhorn (ESS)'''
| align="center" style="background:bisque" | General [[Second WG Discussion | Discussion]] on Working Group presentations
|-
! 12:15 - 12:25
| align="center" style="background:#f2f2f2" | Group Photo
| style="background:#f2f2f2" | Group Photo
|-
! 12:25 - 12:40
| align="center" style="background:#f2f2f2" | LUNCH
| style="background:#f2f2f2" | Pick up lunch boxes in hall
|-
! 12:40 - 13:05
| align="center" style="background:bisque" | Working LUNCH ''Moderator/Scribe:'' '''Adrian Rennie (Uppsala)''' and '''Andrew Jackson'''
| align="center" style="background:bisque" | [[Lunch Discussion | Lunch Discussion]] (next general meeting (canSASXV) etc)
|-
! 13:05 - 13:35
| rowspan="2" align="center" style="background:#e4dfec" | Topical Presentations/Discussions: 5 to 20 min presentation followed by discussion for each ''Session Chair:'' Anja Hörmann (BAM)
| style="background:#e4dfec" | Data Reduction Anna Sokolova (ANSTO) ''Scribe:'' '''Sylvain Prevost (ILL)''' [[Data Reduction Notes | Notes]]
|-
! 13:35 - 14:05
| style="background:#e4dfec" | Databases Wiebke Koepp (LBL) ''Scribe:'' '''Brian Pauw (BAM)''' [[Databases Notes | Notes]]
|-
! 14:05 - 14:35
| align="center" style="background:#f2f2f2" | Break
| style="background:#f2f2f2" | coffee/tea
|-
! 14:35 - 15:05
| align="center" style="background:#e4dfec" | Topical Presentations/Discussions: 5 to 20 min presentation followed by discussion for each ''Session Chair:'' Anja Hörmann (BAM)
| style="background:#e4dfec" | AI/ML in SAS Peter Beaucage (NIST) ''Scribe:'' '''TBA''' [[AI Notes | Notes]]
|-
! 15:05 - 15:25
| align="center" style="background:bisque" | Discussion ''Moderator/Scribe:'' Tim Snow (Diamond) and '''Andrew Smith (Diamond)'''
| align="center" style="background:bisque" | [[Topical Discussion | Discuss/define possible needs for action]]
|-
! 15:25 - 15:45
| align="center" style="background:bisque"| Discussion ''Moderator/Scribe:'' Adrian Rennie (Uppsala) and Paul Butler (UD/NCNR)
| style="background:bisque" | [[Final Discussion | Going Forward]]
* Call for workshops
* Call for volunteers/sign up to mailing lists
|-
! 15:45
| align="center" style="background:#f2f2f2" | ADJOURN and breakout discussions
| style="background:#f2f2f2" |Formal/informal WG discussions
|-
! 16:00
| align="center" style="background:#f2f2f2" | SAS-2024 OPENING RECEPTION
| style="background:#f2f2f2" | Ongoing informal discussions and party
|}

File:canSAS Repr Rel report 2024.pdf

2024-11-03T23:09:10Z

AdrianRennie: Reproducibility and reliability working group report at canSAS-2024 workshop. This includes a short description of the round-robin planned by Joe Kline.

== Summary ==
Reproducibility and reliability working group report at canSAS-2024 workshop. This includes a short description of the round-robin planned by Joe Kline.

canSAS

2024-10-16T04:20:03Z

AdrianRennie:

==News==
'''DATE FOR YOUR DIARY!: [https://www.sas2024.tw SAS 2024] will take place Nov 3-8, 2024 in Taipei Taiwan.'''

The 25th canSAS anniversary workshop, [https://wiki.cansas.org/index.php/canSAS-2023 canSAS-XIII], was held in Grenoble on October 16-18, 2023

An interim workshop [[canSAS-XII]] was held (in hybrid mode) as a satellite workshop to the Small-Angle Scattering (SAS2022) held in Campinas, Brazil on Monday 12th September 2022 (6-8 pm).

NOTE: As of November 29, 2021, the canSAS wiki has been moved to a new server with a secure certificate (https compatible). In the process, the mediawiki version it is built on was upgraded from 1.18 (last installed ~2012) to the latest LTS version 1.35. Should you see anything missing or broken, please contact Paul Butler at [mailto:butlerpd@udel.edu butlerpd@udel.edu]

A workshop on advanced resolution (initially envisaged by TOF SANS working group) was held [https://indico.esss.lu.se/event/2506 virtually] on March 25 and 25, 2021.

A full workshop, [[canSAS-XI]] was held 8 to 10 July 2019 in Freising Germany.

An interim workshop, [[canSAS-X]] was held on Sunday, October 7, 2018 at Peninsula Room C, Grand Traverse Resort & Spa, Traverse City, Michigan, USA, just before [https://sas2018.anl.gov SAS2018].

The [[canSAS-IX | canSAS-IX]] workshop was held in Northern California on June 5-7 2017 hosted jointly by [http://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/ SSRL] and [https://als.lbl.gov/ ALS].

The [[NXcanSAS]] multi-dimensional (''nD'') standard was released 2017-01-17.

The [[canSAS-VIII | canSAS VIII meeting]] was held in Japan on April 14-16, 2015.

The outcomes of recent canSAS work was presented to the community at a special session on 20 November at the SAS-2012 conference in Sydney, Australia (18 to 23 November 2012). Presentations from this session and other canSAS work are reported on a separate page: [[canSAS_at_the_SAS-2012_Conference]].

There has been a working meeting in Uppsala, Sweden from 28 to 31 July 2012 : [[canSAS-2012 | canSAS 2012]].

The canSAS web site has moved to a new domain: [[http://www.cansas.org www.cansas.org]] - Welcome to our new home! If you spot any broken links or strange behavior, email Andrew (andrew dot jackson at esss dot se).

== Working Groups ==

Working groups are formed as needed to address the various matters of interest to the canSAS.

=== Current Working Groups ===
<categorytree mode=pages hideroot=on>Working Groups</categorytree>

=== Previous Working Groups ===
<categorytree mode=all hideroot=on>Previous Working Groups</categorytree>

2024 Worshop

2024-09-10T15:37:24Z

AdrianRennie:

== Agenda ==
{| {{Tablestyle}}|-
! {{Headcellstyle}} | time
! {{Headcellstyle}} | activity
! {{Headcellstyle}} | title
|-
! 09:15 - 09:25
| align="center" style="background:#dce6f1" | introduction
| style="background:#dce6f1" | Welcome and Plan Of the Day - U-Ser Jeng (NSRRC)
|-
! 09:25 - 09:45
| align="center" style="background:#dce6f1" | introduction
| style="background:#dce6f1"| canSAS Introduction and Background- Paul Butler (University of Delaware/NIST-CNR)
|-
! rowspan="4"|09:45 - 10:25
| rowspan="4" align="center" style="background:#dce6f1" |Working Group Status Updates (~ 8 min + 2 min questions each)
| style="background:#dce6f1" | Information and Dissemination Paul Butler (UD/NIST) 
|-
| style="background:#dce6f1"| Sample Environments Nick Terrill (Diamond)
|-
| style="background:#dce6f1"| Grazing Incidence Tim Snow (Diamond)
|-
| style="background:#dce6f1"| Reproducibilty and Reliability Adrian Rennie (Uppsala)
|-
! 10:25 - 10:45
| align="center" style="background:bisque" | Discussion
| align="center" style="background:bisque" | General Discussion on Working Group presentations
|-
! 10:45 - 11:15
| align="center" style="background:#f2f2f2" | Break
| style="background:#f2f2f2" | coffee/tea
|-
! rowspan="4"|11:15 - 11:55
| rowspan="4" align="center" style="background:#dce6f1" |Working Group Status Updates (~ 8 min + 2 min questions each)
| style="background:#dce6f1"| Data Formats Andrew Jackson (ESS)
|-
| style="background:#dce6f1"| SESANS Wim Bouwman (Delft)
|-
| style="background:#dce6f1"| TOF SANS TBD
|-
| style="background:#dce6f1"| Tomography Tim Snow (Diamond)
|-
! 11:55 - 12:15
| align="center" style="background:bisque" | Discussion
| align="center" style="background:bisque" | General Discussion on Working Group presentations
|-
! 12:15 - 12:25
| align="center" style="background:#f2f2f2" | Group Photo
| style="background:#f2f2f2" | Group Photo
|-
! 12:25 - 12:40
| align="center" style="background:#f2f2f2" | LUNCH
| style="background:#f2f2f2" | Pick up lunch boxes in hall
|-
! 12:40 - 13:05
| align="center" style="background:bisque" | Working LUNCH
| style="background:bisque" | Discussion about next general meeting (canSASXV)
|-
! 13:05 - 13:35
| rowspan="2" align="center" style="background:#e4dfec" | Topical Presentations: Up to 20 min presentation followed by 10+ min discussion for each
| style="background:#e4dfec" | Data Reduction
|-
! 13:35 - 14:05
| style="background:#e4dfec" | Databases
|-
! 14:05 - 14:35
| align="center" style="background:#f2f2f2" | Break
| style="background:#f2f2f2" | coffee/tea
|-
! 14:35 - 15:05
| align="center" style="background:#e4dfec" | Topical Presentations: Up to 20 min presentation followed by 10+ min discussion for each
| style="background:#e4dfec" | AI/ML in SAS Peter Beaucage (NIST)
|-
! 15:05 - 15:25
| align="center" style="background:bisque" | Discussion
| style="background:bisque" | Discuss/define possible needs for action
|-
! 15:25 - 15:45
| align="center" style="background:bisque"| Discussion
| style="background:bisque" | Going Forward - moderator TBD
* Call for workshops
* Call for volunteers/sign up to mailing lists
|-
! 15:45
| align="center" style="background:#f2f2f2" | ADJOURN and breakout discussions
| style="background:#f2f2f2" |Formal/informal WG discussions
|-
! 16:00
| align="center" style="background:#f2f2f2" | SAS-2024 OPENING RECEPTION
| style="background:#f2f2f2" | Ongoing informal discussions and party
|}

Reproducibility and Reliability Working Group

2021-04-15T10:31:11Z

AdrianRennie: /* Calibration Procedures */ correct a spelling typo

==Reliability and Reproducibility==

The group considers the issues that relate to reliability of results from small-angle scattering experiments, both as regards measured data and the parameters derived from analysis of the data that describe the samples. It had been established originally under the name 'Standardization' but has been renamed to provide a better description of the activities.

Anybody that is interested is welcome to join the mail group associated with this topic. Past messages are available at:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/cansas-rrwg and there is a button marked 'Apply to join group'.

==Members==
* John Barker (NIST)
* Peter Boesecke (ESRF Contact)
* Rex Hjelm (LANSCE)
* Jan Ilavsky (APS)
* Peter Lindner (ILL)
* Marc Malfois (Alba)
* Adrian Rennie (Uppsala University - chair)

==News/Status==

*June 2017. There is discussion of new activities at the canSAS-IX meeting related Reproducibility and Reliability. http://www.cansas.org/wgwiki/index.php/Reliability
*August 2015. The mailing list is now on Google Groups [https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/cansas-rrwg https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/cansas-rrwg]. A summary of recent activities will be presented at the [[SAS_2015_Berlin |lunch time session]] at the SAS2015 meeting in Berlin on Monday September 14, 2015.
*A short account of the discussion concerning this topic at the canSAS-VIII meeting from 14 to 16 April 2015 in Tokai is available:

[[Discussion_Group_B2]]

Plans are being made (April 2015) for further types of sample to be circulated for comparative measurements.

*Discussion at the workshop in Uppsala has been presented on a separate page:

[[2012 Standards Discussion|canSAS 2012 meeting discussions]]

*Work was presented at the SAS-2012 conference (www.sas2012.com). This include a summary of standardization in the canSAS session and a presentation on the latex round robin measurements.

[[canSAS at the SAS-2012 Conference]]

==Glassy Carbon Round Robin==
Two samples of glassy carbons from Jan Ilavsky have been doing the rounds. They've been to NIST, ILL, ISIS, APS, ESRF and Diamond and ANSTO.

Details and data here : [[ Glassy Carbon Round Robin ]]

==Polystyrene Latex Round Robin==
Samples of a monodisperse polystyrene latex have recently been measured at ILL (D22 and D11), ANSTO (Quokka), ISIS (SANS2D) and at NCNR (NG7). Samples are also at Diamond awaiting measurement.
Details and data here : [[ Latex Round Robin ]]

A new series of samples designated J, K, L and that have slightly different dilution have been provided for measurements at APS, FRMII, SPRING-8 and ILL.

Results of measurements with some conclusions are described in a publication in Journal of Applied Crystallography:

A. R. Rennie, M. S. Hellsing, K. Wood, E. P. Gilbert, L. Porcar, R. Schweins, C. D. Dewhurst, P. Lindner, R. K. Heenan, S. E. Rogers, P. D. Butler, J. R. Krzywon, R. E. Ghosh, A. J. Jackson and M. Malfois 'Learning about SANS instruments and data reduction from round robin measurements on samples of polystyrene latex', Journal of Applied Crystallography, 46, (2013). doi: 10.1107/S0021889813019468 [http://dx.doi.org/10.1107/S0021889813019468].

==Calibration Procedures==

We will try to gather summaries of the procedures used for calibration of small-angle scattering instruments. It has been suggested that summaries of information would benefit both users and those who run instruments and facilities. Everyone is encouraged to contribute to this work in progress. Procedures for laboratory instruments as well as synchrotron and neutron facilities are welcome.

Details are here : [[ Calibration Procedures ]]

[[Category:Working Groups]]

canSAS-XI

2019-11-27T06:45:44Z

AdrianRennie: Add link to SRN report

The 11th canSAS workshop was held 8 to 10 July 2019 in Freising Germany. Practical information is available on the web at:

http://www.fz-juelich.de/jcns/EN/Leistungen/ConferencesAndWorkshops/canSASXI/_node.html

A short report on this meeting has appeared in Synchrotron Radiation News. https://doi.org/10.1080/08940886.2019.1680215 This is an open access article that is freely available to anyone.

__TOC__

== Program ==

=== Monday July 8 ===

{| border='1' width=700px
|-
|width=100px |11:00 - 12:00 || colspan=3 | Registration
|-
|12:00 - 13:00 || colspan=3 | Lunch
|-
|13:00 - 14:30 || colspan=3 | Welcome and Short introduction of each participant
|-
|14:30 - 15:30 || colspan=3 | Plenary : Breakout session introductions : GISAS, Software, & Reduction/Reconstruction - Multiple Scattering
|-
|15:30 - 16:00 || colspan=3 | Coffee Break
|-
|16:00 - 17:30 || width=200px | Breakout : [[canSAS-XI/GISAS|GISAS]] Chair : Eva M Herzig || width=150px | Breakout : [[canSAS-XI/Software|Software]] Chair : Paul Butler || width=250px | Breakout : [[cansas-XI/MultipleScattering|Multiple Scattering]] Chair : Theyencheri Narayanan
|-
|17:30 - 18:00 || colspan=3 | Plenary : Reporting from each group (5 min) + discussion
|-
|18:00 - 18:30 || colspan=3 | Talk by M. Schwartzkopf on "Tackling high data rates in GISAXS: Current status and future challenges"
|-
|18:30 - 19:30 || colspan=3 | POSTER SESSION on new instrumental developments/ Software/ Sample environment/ etc.
|-
|19:30 || colspan=3 | Dinner

|}

=== Tuesday July 9 ===

{| border='1' width=700px
|-
|width=100px | 09:00 - 10:00 || colspan=3 | Plenary : Breakout session introductions : Sample Environment, TOF-SANS & Reduction/Reconstruction
|-
|10:00 - 11:30 || width=200px |Breakout : [[canSAS-XI/SampleEnvironment | Sample Environment]] Chair : Katie Weigandt || width=200px | Breakout : [[canSAS-XI/TOFSANS | TOF-SANS]] Chairs : Jackson & Sokolova || width=200px | Breakout : [[canSAS-XI/ExtendedQrange | Extended Q-range]] Chair : Wim Bouwman
|-
|11:30 - 12:00 || colspan=3 | Plenary : Reporting from each group (5 min) + discussion
|-
|12:00 - 13:00 || colspan=3 | Lunch
|-
|13:00 - 14:00 || colspan=3 | Plenary : Breakout session introductions : Dissemination, Data Formats & Reduction/Reconstruction
|-
|14:00 - 15:30 || width=200px | Breakout : [[canSAS-XI/Dissemination | Dissemination]] Chair : Adrian Rennie || width=150px | Breakout : [[canSAS-XI/DataFormats | Data Formats]] Chair : Tim Snow || width=250px | Breakout : [[canSAS-XI/ReductionReconstruction | Reduction/Reconstruction]] Chair : Sylvain Prevost
|-
|15:30 - 16:00 || colspan=3 | Coffee Break
|-
|16:00 - 16:30 || colspan=3 | Plenary : Reporting from each group (5 min) + discussion
|-
|16:30 - 17:30 || colspan=3 | POSTER SESSION on new instrumental developments/ Software/ Sample environment/ etc.
|-
|17:30 - 19:00 || colspan=3 | Transfer to and tour of the Weihenstephan Brewery
|-
|19:00 || colspan=3 | Dinner

|}

=== Wednesday July 10 ===

{| border='1' width=700px
|-
|width=100px | 09:00 - 09:30 || colspan=2 | PLENARY: Talk by Roberto Coppola on Steel investigations using SANS || rowspan=3 | Breakout rooms available ...
|-
|09:30 - 10:00 || colspan=2 | PLENARY: Talk by Satoshi Koizumi on SANS at the compact neutron source
|-
|10:00 - 10:30 || colspan=2 |Talk by Yi-Qi Yeh/ U-Ser Jeng on Stoichiometric unfolding of bovine serum albumin
|-
|10:30 - 11:00 || colspan=3 | Coffee Break
|-
|11:00 - 12:00 || colspan=3 | Plenary : [[canSAS-XI/SummaryDiscussion | Summary ]] General discussion, wrap-up & actions
|-
|12:00 - 13:00 || colspan=3 | Lunch
|-
|13:30 - 15:30 || colspan=3 | Reactor tour at MLZ / FRM-II
|-
|15:30 || colspan=3 | Bus from MLZ to Airport
|}

=== Thursday July 11 - Meeting with Anton Paar ===

{| border='1' width=700px
|-
|width=100px | 08:00 - 10:45 || colspan=3 | Travel to Anton Paar in Stuttgart
|-
|11:00 - 12:30 || colspan=3 | [[canSAS-XI/AntonPaarNotes | Discussion on controlling the MCR series rheometers remotely]]
|-
|12:30 - 14:00 || colspan=3 | Lunch
|-
|14:00 - 15:00 || colspan=3 | [[canSAS-XI/AntonPaarNotes | Discussion of new design of quartz cups]]
|-
|15:00 || colspan=3 | Bus Departs from Stuttgart
|}

== Workshop photo(s) ==

{|
[[File:GroupFoto1.JPG | 400px]] || [[File:GroupFoto2.JPG | 400px]]
|}

canSAS-XI/SampleEnvironment

2019-10-26T09:13:01Z

AdrianRennie: /* Session Notes */

[[File:Sample_Environment_Discussion_Primer_Weigandt.pdf]]== Discussion session on Sample Environment ==
Chair : Katie Weigandt

<<upload introductory presentation from plenary as PDF and link here >>

== Session Notes ==

*Poster session

Apart from the discussion during the session there was active discussion around the posters and some of these related to sample environment:

(a) NURF – optimisation of multiple in situ simultaneous, autonomous characterisation techniques with small-angle neutron scattering. This describes simultaneous in-situ UV-vis and fluorescence spectroscopy with density measurements that are combined with SANS. http://www.cansas.org/wgwiki/images/c/c2/NURF_Flowthrough_combined_SANS_spectroscopy.pdf

(b) Additive Manufacturing of Neutron Shielding and Collimation materials. This describes new ways to shield various components including those around samples. http://www.cansas.org/wgwiki/images/9/91/3D_printing_shielding_materials.pdf

== Actions ==

File:3D printing shielding materials.pdf

2019-10-26T09:11:52Z

AdrianRennie: Additive Manufacturing of Neutron Shielding and Collimation materials - including sample environments

Additive Manufacturing of Neutron Shielding and Collimation materials - including sample environments

canSAS-XI/SampleEnvironment

2019-10-26T09:10:12Z

AdrianRennie: /* Session Notes */

[[File:Sample_Environment_Discussion_Primer_Weigandt.pdf]]== Discussion session on Sample Environment ==
Chair : Katie Weigandt

<<upload introductory presentation from plenary as PDF and link here >>

== Session Notes ==

Apart from the discussion during the session there was active discussion around the posters and some of these related to sample environment:

(a) NURF – optimisation of multiple in situ simultaneous, autonomous characterisation techniques with small-angle neutron scattering. This describes simultaneous in-situ UV-vis and fluorescence spectroscopy with density measurements that are combined with SANS. http://www.cansas.org/wgwiki/images/c/c2/NURF_Flowthrough_combined_SANS_spectroscopy.pdf

(b) Additive Manufacturing of Neutron Shielding and Collimation materials. This describes new ways to shield various components including those around samples.

== Actions ==

canSAS-XI/SampleEnvironment

2019-10-26T08:59:00Z

AdrianRennie: /* Session Notes */

File:NURF Flowthrough combined SANS spectroscopy.pdf

2019-10-26T08:54:09Z

AdrianRennie: Sample environment poster - combined SANS with spectroscopy and density measurement

Sample environment poster - combined SANS with spectroscopy and density measurement

canSAS

2019-07-23T12:55:33Z

AdrianRennie: /* News */

==News==

A full workshop, [[canSAS-XI]] was held 8 to 10 July 2019 in Freising Germany.

An interim workshop, [[canSAS-X]] was held on Sunday, October 7, 2018 at Peninsula Room C, Grand Traverse Resort & Spa, Traverse City, Michigan, USA, just before [https://sas2018.anl.gov SAS2018].

The [[canSAS-IX | canSAS-IX]] workshop was held in Northern California on June 5-7 2017 hosted jointly by [http://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/ SSRL] and [https://als.lbl.gov/ ALS].

The [[NXcanSAS]] multi-dimensional (''nD'') standard was released 2017-01-17.

The [[canSAS-VIII | canSAS VIII meeting]] was held in Japan on April 14-16, 2015.

The outcomes of recent canSAS work was presented to the community at a special session on 20 November at the SAS-2012 conference in Sydney, Australia (18 to 23 November 2012). Presentations from this session and other canSAS work are reported on a separate page: [[canSAS_at_the_SAS-2012_Conference]].

There has been a working meeting in Uppsala, Sweden from 28 to 31 July 2012 : [[canSAS-2012 | canSAS 2012]].

The canSAS web site has moved to a new domain: [[http://www.cansas.org www.cansas.org]] - Welcome to our new home! If you spot any broken links or strange behavior, email Andrew (andrew dot jackson at esss dot se).

== Working Groups ==

Working groups are formed as needed to address the various matters of interest to the canSAS.

=== Current Working Groups ===
<categorytree mode=pages hideroot=on>Working Groups</categorytree>

=== Previous Working Groups ===
<categorytree mode=pages hideroot=on>Previous Working Groups</categorytree>

canSAS-XI/SummaryDiscussion

2019-07-22T03:33:25Z

AdrianRennie: /* Actions from Working Group Sessions */

== Wrap-up - Summary of Discussions ==

=== Communications to the canSAS community ===

The use of Google groups does seem to be unsatisfactory. A new mail list server has been established for SASview and this can be used also for canSAS. AJJ will migrate the existing lists and all participants at the meeting will be included on the general list and invited to join the various working group lists.

=== Actions from Working Group Sessions ===

Several clear future actions emerged from individual break out sessions but also from informal discussion that led to links between the various working groups being reiterated.

* Sample Environment

* Grazing Incidence Scattering

* Data Formats
**A request has been circulated for further example nxcanSAS data files to be provided on GitHub. In particular datafiles with real data are helpful.
**A proposal for standard descriptions of reduced SESANS data will be developed so that this type of scattering data can be more readily used with regular software packages although this is not in the same form as other data that are primarily values of momentum transfer with associated intensity.

* Multiple Scattering
** Efforts will be made to incorporate analysis of multiple scattering in the popular, community shared data analysis packages.
** Example data sets, for example of scattering from well-characterized, spherical colloidal particles will be posted to web repositories to provide test data with known multiple scattering.

* Time-of-flight SANS Data reduction
** A new working group co-ordinated by Anna Sokolova and Andrew Jackson has been established to resolve issues related to time-of-flight SANS data reduction. It is planned that there will be initial mail-list discussion and that a face-to-face meeting will then be arranged to resolve details of recommended procedures.

* Software
** Several actions were identified in the discussions about software.
** Dissemination of information is crucial for both instrument scientists and users. This could include video tutorials for selecting software program(s). It was suggested that this is an activity for the Dissemination Group.
** Amongst improvements needed on Smallangle.org, it would be helpful to separate out highly used software and mark those packages that are supported and those that have no current supported.
** Networking grants could be an effective means to bring people together to work on development of software. Specific funding opportunities need to be identified.

* Information and Dissemination
** The advantages of provision of material and making it widely accessible mean that renewed activity in this area is required. It is planned to hold a code-camp to work on updating the SAS portal to a more modern, attractive design. This should also aim to make material easier to find and what is relevant for different target groups such as prospective users, existing users, instrument specialists etc., can be readily identified.

* Standardisation
** There are continued needs for activities to provide comparison of data measured with different instruments. Pressing needs were recognised in two areas that have not previously been covered: (a) for the extended Q-range covered by USAXS, USANS and SESANS and (b) for GISAS both with X-rays and neutrons. Ideally materials could be measured with both radiation probes for effective comparison and cross-calibration.

=== Plans for Future canSAS meetings ===

There is considerable enthusiasm to hold future canSAS meetings. It is necessary to decide both when and where workshops should be held. Timing should avoid clashes or proximity to major relevant conferences such as the IUCr congress in 2020, which will have considerable SAS related content, and SAS-2021. It is also necessary to allow some time between workshops for the individual work groups to make progress on their agreed actions. It is possible to envisage making plans now for the next two meetings.

Offers to host meetings have been received from:

*
*

canSAS-XI/AntonPaarNotes

2019-07-15T18:43:09Z

AdrianRennie: /* Discussion session with Anton Paar */ correct some typos

== Discussion session with Anton Paar ==

'''Chair:''' Katie Weigandt

'''Facility Representatives:''' Tim Snow (Diamond), Stephen King (STFC), Kathryn Baker (STFC), Roland Kadar (Chalmers), Jeff Krzywon (NCNR), Katie Weigandt (NCNR), Judith Houston (ESS), Henrich Frielinghaus (HMZ), Christian Lang (HMZ), Harald Schneider (ESS)

'''Anton Paar Representatives:''' Andre Brown (Application Support), Klaus (Software Coordinator), Peter Hof (Team Leader), Jorg Lauger (Lead Rheology Scientist)

== Session Notes ==

<<Notes coming soon>>

=== Contemporaneous notes by Jeff Krzywon available here ===

[https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JWp_j0hDORDdf2hpAhip09VCROF-4Bj8/view?usp=sharing Google Doc With Notes]

== Actions ==

* Katie – Give Jeff list of names to add the email chain
* Jeff – Add Lionel, Andre, Kathryn (use her STFC address) and others to email chain
* Klaus – Documentation on Lab Automation System, Triggering, and Basic Information on Scripting
* Jeff – Post notes to canSAS wiki and send out to email chain
* Jeff – Send SECoP and ISSE websites to email chain
* Anton Paar – Meeting to determine which safety features are built in to the rheometer vs. which are features of RheoCompass
* Steve – Share information on existing bob that uses quartz bob with metallic top and bottom with Anton Paar

Grazing Incidence Working Group

2019-07-14T10:16:32Z

AdrianRennie: /* News/Status */

=== News/Status ===

The working group was formed at canSAS-VIII in Japan. At canSAS-XI in Freising it was agreed that we would liaise with the reflectometry community, who are having a meeting in October 2019. Tim Snow is organising that meeting and Adrian Rennie and Andrew Jackson are likely to be attending. Sebastian Jaksch is interested in doing some work on GISANS standards.


[[Category:Working Groups]]

canSAS-XI/SummaryDiscussion

2019-07-13T18:51:49Z

AdrianRennie: /* Activities from Working Group Sessions */

== Wrap-up - Summary of Discussions ==

=== Communications to the canSAS community ===

The use of Google groups does seem to be unsatisfactory. A new mail list server has been established for SASview and this can be used also for canSAS. AJJ will migrate the existing lists and all participants at the meeting will be included on the general list and invited to join the various working group lists.

=== Actions from Working Group Sessions ===

Several clear future actions emerged from individual break out sessions but also from informal discussion that led to links between the various working groups being reiterated.

* Sample Environment

* Grazing Incidence Scattering

* Data Formats
**A request has been circulated for further example nxcanSAS data files to be provided on GitHub. In particular datafiles with real data are helpful.
**A proposal for standard descriptions of reduced SESANS data will be developed so that this type of scattering data can be more readily used with regular software packages although this is not in the same form as other data that are primarily values of momentum transfer with associated intensity.

* Multiple Scattering
** Efforts will be made to incorporate analysis of multiple scattering in the popular, community shared data analysis packages.
** Example data sets, for example of scattering from well-characterized, spherical colloidal particles will be posted to web repositories to provide test data with known multiple scattering.

* Time-of-flight SANS Data reduction
** A new working group co-ordinated by Anna Sokolova and Andrew Jackson has been established to resolve issues related to time-of-flight SANS data reduction. It is planned that there will be initial mail-list discussion and that a face-to-face meeting will then be arranged to resolve details of recommended procedures.

* Software

* Information and Dissemination
**The advantages of provision of material and making it widely accessible mean that renewed activity in this area is required. It is planned to hold a code-camp to work on updating the SAS portal to a more modern, attractive design. This should also aim to make material easier to find and what is relevant for different target groups such as prospective users, existing users, instrument specialists etc., can be readily identified.

* Standardisation
** There are continued needs for activities to provide comparison of data measured with different instruments. Pressing needs were recognised in two areas that have not previously been covered: (a) for the extended Q-range covered by USAXS, USANS and SESANS and (b) for GISAS both with X-rays and neutrons. Ideally materials could be measured with both radiation probes for effective comparison and cross-calibration.

=== Plans for Future canSAS meetings ===

There is considerable enthusiasm to hold future canSAS meetings. It is necessary to decide both when and where workshops should be held. Timing should avoid clashes or proximity to major relevant conferences such as the IUCr congress in 2020, which will have considerable SAS related content, and SAS-2021. It is also necessary to allow some time between workshops for the individual work groups to make progress on their agreed actions. It is possible to envisage making plans now for the next two meetings.

Offers to host meetings have been received from:

*
*

canSAS-XI/SummaryDiscussion

2019-07-13T18:30:57Z

AdrianRennie: /* Communications to the canSAS community */

canSAS-XI/SummaryDiscussion

2019-07-12T18:23:20Z

AdrianRennie: /* Plans for Future canSAS meetings */

== Wrap-up - Summary of Discussions ==

=== Communications to the canSAS community ===

The use of Google groups does seem to be satisfactory. A new mail list server has been established for SASview and this can be used also for canSAS. AJJ will migrate the existing lists and all participants at the meeting will be included on the general list and invited to join the various working group lists.

=== Activities from Working Group Sessions ===

* Grazing Incidence Scattering

* Data Formats

* Multiple Scattering

* Time-of-flight SANS Data reduction
** A new working group co-ordinated by Anna Sokolova and Andrew Jackson has been established to resolve issues related to time-of-flight SANS data reduction. It is planned that there will be initial mail-list discussion and that a face-to-face meeting will then be arranged to resolve details of recommended procedures.

* Software

* Information and Dissemination
**The advantages of provision of material and making it widely accessible mean that renewed activity in this area is required. It is planned to hold a code-camp to work on updating the SAS portal to a more modern, attractive design. This should also aim to make material easier to find and what is relevant for different target groups such as prospective users, existing users, instrument specialists etc., can be readily identified.

* Standardisation
** There are continued needs for activities to provide comparison of data measured with different instruments. Pressing needs were recognised in two areas that have not previously been covered: (a) for the extended Q-range covered by USAXS, USANS and SESANS and (b) for GISAS both with X-rays and neutrons. Ideally materials could be measured with both radiation probes for effective comparison and cross-calibration.

=== Plans for Future canSAS meetings ===

There is considerable enthusiasm to hold future canSAS meetings. It is necessary to decide both when and where workshops should be held. Timing should avoid clashes or proximity to major relevant conferences such as the IUCr congress in 2020, which will have considerable SAS related content, and SAS-2021. It is also necessary to allow some time between workshops for the individual work groups to make progress on their agreed actions. It is possible to envisage making plans now for the next two meetings.

Offers to host meetings have been received from:

*
*

TOF-SANS Working Group

2019-07-11T21:29:32Z

AdrianRennie: /* Members */

===Members===
* Andrew Jackson (ESS)
* Anna Sokolova (ANSTO)
* Sebastian Jaksch (JCNS)
* Judith Houston (ESS)
* Adrian Rennie (Uppsala)

===News/Status===
* Working group formed at canSAS-XI in Freising

[[Category:Working Groups]]

canSAS-XI/SummaryDiscussion

2019-07-11T21:26:41Z

AdrianRennie: /* Activities from Working Group Sessions */

canSAS-XI/Dissemination

2019-07-11T10:58:19Z

AdrianRennie: /* Actions */

Chair : Adrian Rennie

=== Presentations ===

Session Plenary overview : [[Media:Dissemination_intro_Web.pdf|Introduction to Dissemination]]

=== Session Notes ===

There were 11 participants in the breakout group.

*A major conclusion of the break-out discussion was that information is needed for people that are unaware of small-angle scattering but could make use of it. Such people will not search for terms such as SAXS, SANS or GISAS but will be looking to find ways to characterize materials and understand their properties. Links to this relevant information need to be made.

*It was recognised that canSAS cannot do everything. It needs to co-operate with others to provide links to relevant materials that have been created elsewhere.

*Apart from the general discussion there were a number of specific ideas for material that could be provided via links on the SAS portal:
**Virtual catalogue of case studies. This can build on material made available by facilities and national scattering societies. Press releases about work could also be catalogued and, possibly, even archived.
**Several schools and courses have developed experiments that are used as part of their teaching activities. Protocols and tutorial from these courses could be linked.
**Press officers at facilities and elsewhere often have relevant information and might be able to assist.
**We need to get links to the SAS portal on other relevant pages so that the portal material is more readily found, e.g. by searches.
**Videos are attractive for instruction and general information. The portal should try to exploit such media better. A start would be to link to existing videos that are available and to establish an appropriate YouTube channel.

=== Actions ===

In order to make progress with the necessary aims it is planned first organise one or two conference calls amongst interested participants prior to organising a 'code-camp' at which extensive revisions of the portal content will be implemented. Paul Butler will arrange a doodle poll to schedule the initial call(s). The invitations to these will be sent to everyone at the break-out session as well as others who have expressed interest.

A youtube channel has been created : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwECVEHm8JhMCyGiqfZQYVQ

canSAS-XI/Dissemination

2019-07-11T10:54:57Z

AdrianRennie: /* Session Notes */

Chair : Adrian Rennie

=== Presentations ===

Session Plenary overview : [[Media:Dissemination_intro_Web.pdf|Introduction to Dissemination]]

=== Session Notes ===

There were 11 participants in the breakout group.

*A major conclusion of the break-out discussion was that information is needed for people that are unaware of small-angle scattering but could make use of it. Such people will not search for terms such as SAXS, SANS or GISAS but will be looking to find ways to characterize materials and understand their properties. Links to this relevant information need to be made.

*It was recognised that canSAS cannot do everything. It needs to co-operate with others to provide links to relevant materials that have been created elsewhere.

*Apart from the general discussion there were a number of specific ideas for material that could be provided via links on the SAS portal:
**Virtual catalogue of case studies. This can build on material made available by facilities and national scattering societies. Press releases about work could also be catalogued and, possibly, even archived.
**Several schools and courses have developed experiments that are used as part of their teaching activities. Protocols and tutorial from these courses could be linked.
**Press officers at facilities and elsewhere often have relevant information and might be able to assist.
**We need to get links to the SAS portal on other relevant pages so that the portal material is more readily found, e.g. by searches.
**Videos are attractive for instruction and general information. The portal should try to exploit such media better. A start would be to link to existing videos that are available and to establish an appropriate YouTube channel.

=== Actions ===

In order to make progress with the necessary aims it is planned first organise one or two conference calls amongst interested participants prior to organising a 'code-camp' at which extensive revisions of the portal content will be implemented. Paul Butler will arrange a doodle poll to schedule the initial call(s).

A youtube channel has been created : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwECVEHm8JhMCyGiqfZQYVQ

canSAS-XI/Dissemination

2019-07-11T10:54:39Z

AdrianRennie: /* Actions */

Chair : Adrian Rennie

=== Presentations ===

Session Plenary overview : [[Media:Dissemination_intro_Web.pdf|Introduction to Dissemination]]

=== Session Notes ===

There were 11 participants in the breakout group.

*A major conclusion of the break-out discussion was that information is needed for people that are unaware of small-angle scattering but could make use of it. Such people will not search for terms such as SAXS, SANS or GISAS but will be looking to find ways to characterize materials and understand their properties. Links to this relevant information need to be made.

*It was recognised that canSAS cannot do everything. It needs to co-operate with others to provide links to relevant materials that have been created elsewhere.

*Apart from the general discussion there were a number of specific ideas for material that could be provided via links on the SAS portal:
**Virtual catalogue of case studies. This can build on material made available by facilities and national scattering societies. Press releases about work could also be catalogued and, possibly, even archived.
**Several schools and courses have developed experiments that are used as part of their teaching activities. Protocols and tutorial from these courses could be linked.
**Press officers at facilities and elsewhere often have relevant information and might be able to assist.
**We need to get links to the SAS portal on other relevant pages so that the portal material is more readily found, e.g. by searches.
**Videos are attractive for instruction and general information. The portal should try to exploit such media better. A start would be to link to existing videos that are available and to establish an appropriate YouTube channel.

In order to make progress with the necessary aims it is planned first organise one or two conference calls amongst interested participants prior to organising a 'code-camp' at which extensive revisions of the portal content will be implemented. Paul Butler will arrange a doodle poll to schedule the initial call(s).

A youtube channel has been created : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwECVEHm8JhMCyGiqfZQYVQ

=== Actions ===

In order to make progress with the necessary aims it is planned first organise one or two conference calls amongst interested participants prior to organising a 'code-camp' at which extensive revisions of the portal content will be implemented. Paul Butler will arrange a doodle poll to schedule the initial call(s).

A youtube channel has been created : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwECVEHm8JhMCyGiqfZQYVQ